Redefining Leadership: A Decolonized Approach | Dr. Joel A. Davis Brown

Natasha Nuytten: Hello everyone and welcome to the Human Side Up podcast. I am Natasha Nuytten, your host, and I am so excited today to bring you a conversation with Dr. Joel A. Davis Brown. It is a mouthful of name for a big spirit and a wonderful human being who just has amazing energy and groundedness and an incredibly thoughtful human being around the ideas, storytelling and leadership and to embrace diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging in business. And super excited to bring this conversation to you. Joel is a management consultant and the chief visionary officer of Numos LLC. And they specialize in helping organizations walk through leadership training, do organizational development and again, focus on creating inclusive and diverse environments in which people really belong and thrive. Joel works across sectors from nonprofit and Fortune 500 companies to educational institutions and really has a mission of helping create those spaces where people can thrive. You will notice almost immediately, he has a very diverse background in education and interest. He studied political science, philosophy, African American studies, Spanish, law and most recently leadership and adult education. And he is able to pull the threads of all of those things to really inform the conversation. He is known for his creativity and his critical thinking and analysis, which has really enabled him to help build consensus among diverse groups of people and really to serve in a lot of organizations. And he works with international think tanks like the Diversity Collegium and SETAR. And it's really important because this really helps focus on the intercultural communication and these diversity initiatives. He's also an adjunct professor at the IESEG Management School in France, where he teaches an executive MBA course on emotional intelligence and storytelling. And he is on the leadership council and a member of the Forbes coaches council. And of course, he wrote an incredible book called The Souls of Queer Folk. And it really explores the power of queer wisdom and its potential to transform leadership practices. This conversation was really fantastic. I walked away with gems, but also a thousand more questions. So we are going to do a part two in follow up to this conversation where we really laid the foundations for the importance of and how to go about creating leaders who are making really diverse and inclusive spaces by doing their own work first. And so I'm excited to bring this first step to you in this conversation and also really looking forward to part two. Welcome. This, I promise I won't get too formal, but Dr. Joel A. Davis-Brown, thank you for joining the Human Side Up podcast. I really appreciate you making time for this conversation. I think that your insights around wisdom and storytelling are going to be really good little nuggets for us to start chewing on and having a great conversation around today. So thank you for being here. 

Dr. Joel: Thank you for having me. I'm excited and looking forward to our conversation. Awesome. 

Natasha Nuytten: So one of the places I really like to start is in hearing from you so that we can better understand the distance that you have traveled as a human to end up in this place. What are maybe one or two of the words that you would use to describe yourself that we might not see on your CV that have helped you become, and maybe are you willing to share a little bit about when or how you started to embrace those words for yourself as part of your fabric? Yeah. It'd be lovely to hear. 

Dr. Joel: Yeah. Great questions. Let me think about this. Heart-centered is one word or phrase I would use to describe myself and intuitive. And my experience and relationship with those words has come from being in places that were not heart-centered and were places where I was discouraged from being intuitive or for not honoring my gifts. And so I think back to the relatively short time I practiced law and being in an environment that was very transactional. So I'm much more of a relational person. So when I meet people, it's not about what you do, what you can do for me and how we're going to quote unquote take over the world. It's more about how can we build a relationship and knowing that foundation makes it possible to do many things anything creatively. And that's served me. So I'm the type of person that when I meet people and I'm usually flying somewhere or I'm talking to someone or rubbing shoulders on a train or a bus or just walking down the street and someone says tell me what do you do? I find that to be so boring and I find it to be deactivating. I remember once where I was interviewing to join this consulting outfit, like they were doing work with all the high-tech in the Bay Area. And so I went to what was supposed to be this kind of community gathering and there was one person in particular who I really connected with because they were talking about spirituality and wellness and whatnot and he said, let's connect and I said, okay, sure. And then when we connected about two weeks later, his tone, his energy was very different. So it was very much about, so what are you working on or what are your five goals and how are you making money and what are your top clients? And it affirmed me and validated several things. One, when people say community, it means different things. And I think some of these words have been used in ways that I wouldn't use them and in some ways may perhaps have been co-opted. So that was number one, recognizing that not everybody who talks about community means that because the environment itself was very competitive. So it was everybody jockeying and saying, trying to one-up the other person so that they could present themselves in the best life. Number two, to always lead with who I am and to not be afraid of that. And then number three, to make sure that and recognize that if I feel the energy is draining from me, if I don't feel that spark, then to pay attention to that and to go in a different direction and not be afraid of that. And so much of my life in the States or just in the world from an early age until probably my late thirties, early forties, it was about pushing that aside and questioning who I was and trying to fit myself, their proverbial square peg into the round hole until I finally said, no, I'm not going to do that anymore. I'm just going to be me and trust that where I am will attract the right people, places, circumstances, and experiences. So those are two things that I continually hold on to and I like because they speak more to the community aspect, the familial aspect, the relational aspect, but also the spiritual aspect. And I'm very much a believer that I'm a spiritual person living in this world, and I think we all are, and to honor that and to not shy away from that. And so sometimes when I go into different spaces, particularly on the East Coast, I have to advise them or warn them. This may sound woo, this may sound a little different, but this is me. And so you get all of me all the time, wherever I go, I don't partition or compartmentalize myself anymore. 

Natasha Nuytten: I just love everything that just came out of your mouth. There are, I really, I firmly believe that we are a part of the thing, right? And we are responsible for bringing energy back to it, bringing goodness. What we bring is a part of that fabric, right? That fabric is, we are all threads in the same fabric. And so I love that. And I actually, this is going way back in the, I want to say it was the seventies maybe when all the woo things were happening. Everything lived in Portland. I'm very familiar with the woo. There was a book called the Celestine Prophecy and I remember there being, I came to it very late and as an adult, but I remember there being a scene that I, that as they were talking about this energy exchange and being able to see it happen and this energy being drained off of a person and I was like, I felt that. And it was just like this very sort of visual picture for that feeling. So I love that you've shared that, so thank you very much. One of the words that you've used there is connection. And that's really a word that I have been doing a lot of thinking around in this last year. I don't know that I've landed on anything insightful or wise particularly, but there is an opportunity for not only people in thinking about community, another word that you used, but for business to work toward creating and leveraging the beauty of real connection to help create better places, more inclusive, more diverse, more places to thrive when we think about culture and people. And I'm really curious if when you think about that word connection, before we dive into how we get there, how would you define connection or community as one of the words that you've used? 

Dr. Joel: Yeah, it's so interesting that you asked this because I had a conversation recently with a friend and a colleague and we are part of a community. And we were recognizing that the community was not serving us in the way that we needed to. I think in community and I think in connection, you're making contact. So what does it mean to make contact? It means that you're really engaging with someone's truth, their worldview, their reality. It means that you are being present and a witness to who they are in ways that exceed or go beyond simply just passing by and exchanging pleasantries. It means that people are able to show up and be their full selves, obviously with certain parameters because you're working, for example, in the professional context. So I don't expect people to be their Sunday morning self or their Friday night self necessarily, but to go into an environment where people can bring forth their cultural expertise and genius, which is one of the things I talk about in the book, because that's what we need in order to impact whatever mission that we're trying to accomplish and to fulfill our purpose. So I think for a number of places, that contact may look like email and it may look like sitting in a meeting. But what I'm always surprised by is how people can work together for 10, 12 hours a day and still not know the people that are around them. And if you're really going to do work, if you're really going to be a really, what I think, a strong global citizen, if you're going to be a responsible global citizen, I think we have to find ways to make more contact. I think a lot of the issues that we're seeing in the world, in the community, in families and personally with ourselves as we look at ourselves and we do our own self interrogations because we're not making contact. And in making contact, you also have to make contact with yourself first, which is a difficult thing. So it means peering into the quote unquote abyss and saying who am I? What should I do? What's guiding me? What are my values? How is my cultural frame influencing who I am and how I see things and what is there for me to do to become better, to become a better version of myself? And in doing that, then it becomes easier for you to make contact with other people and to have an honest, authentic and real exchange. But what I have found in my experience is that when people are afraid to look at themselves and are afraid to go within, then it becomes harder to make contact with other people because in doing so, you're not really sharing a part of yourself and you're not really being true to yourself. And so the exchange by itself then becomes fraught with complication and negativity where it's just not, real, genuine, honest engagement. So that's what connection is to me. It is the making contact, which requires you to make contact with yourself if you really want to make contact with someone else. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah, it's really, for me, there's an element of, there's an experiential element, right? Whether it's yourself or someone else, it's really that familiarity and experience with anything to your point where this, a lot of the challenges that we have had as of late feel like they come from a lack of awareness, right? Like you just, you haven't experienced something, you haven't, you're not familiar with it. So your awareness and your sort of sensitivity to the, to how it does touch your life and connect to your world is missing because you just, you haven't experienced it in that way. So yeah, I really appreciate what you've shared there. So in thinking about that, I want to talk about your book and the wisdoms there. I'm excited about that. But I want to lay a foundation that we've done a good job so far, but I'd love for you to maybe define a couple of things as you see them for this conversation. One being diversity. What does that word mean to you? It means a lot of things to a lot of people. And I would also love to ask you about a differentiation between sort of equity and equality. So I'm asking for a two-parter there, but you can take it how you'd like. 

Dr. Joel: Oh, no worries. Yeah. How do I feel about diversity? So I think the concept of diversity is recognizing the variation, the differences, the heterogeneity that exists around us. And I think sometimes in conversations like this, we tend to overlook the D because we think that it's straightforward or it's a matter of fact sort of proposition. And in fact, it isn't. So for example, if we're talking to, if I'm in any number of groups or if any of us are different, in a system or in a community or whatnot. So I'll use myself as an example. So when it comes to going out with friends, they may say, let's go to a restaurant. One of the considerations for me is sharing with them that I don't eat meat. And so it's important to recognize that when we are going out, we all have a different reality. And that we're not all, we don't all have the same culture or belief system or norms and practices. And so it's important to surface that. It's important to recognize that we're not all homogenous. We don't operate in the same way. We're not the same person. What's important then is to recognize what you do with it? And so that's where the work becomes important. Now, when it comes to equity versus equality is treating or is in some ways saying we want to make sure that there's a comparable outcome. What equity is doing is recognizing that we don't all start from the same place. And so based on historical and social circumstances, we have different realities, we have different starting points, and there are different things that we should do to make sure that people are operating from a level playing field. So whether we're talking about women, whether we're talking about people who are LGBTQ, Black, Indigenous, people of color, et cetera, et cetera, people with disabilities, recognizing that not everyone's the same. And the best example I always use is remembering my time as an RA at the University of Minnesota, another cold place. And we always would occasionally do these fire drills. Now, if we simply relied on the bell or the alarm, which is very loud, a number of people would get the notification to leave the building, but those who were hearing impaired would not. So using that system and thinking that it's going to be fair for everyone is probably foolhardy. It's not very effective. So then we came up with a system where there was a flash and light, so people who were hearing impaired could see the flash and light, but what if someone was hearing impaired and visually impaired? So there were a number of different things that we had to put in place to make sure that everybody was receiving adequate and fair treatment. And so that's the difference with equity, is recognizing that people have unique personal social circumstances, sometimes historic circumstances, and we want to make sure that they're treated fairly, assuming that everybody's coming from the same place, given the uneven treatment that we receive within history or throughout the world doesn't recognize the global reality, doesn't recognize history, and doesn't recognize the very idiosyncratic situations that people find themselves in. So when we say that we're treating people equally, we have to be also mindful that not everybody is coming from the same place and not everybody has the same circumstances, and that's where the diversity piece also is important, too, to recognize your reality is different, your background is different, where you've come from is different. And I think those explanations, I think we have an opportunity to re-explain and talk about these concepts because right now they're being framed in such a perverse, twisted, and negative way that sometimes if I were just going by what I see on the news, I wouldn't recognize what diversity is. I wouldn't recognize the importance of equity, and we know that there are efforts out there to make sure that these things are misrepresented and that they don't see the light of day. But I think it's time for us to go back to our basic principles and explain why this work is important and why those concepts are really important to our global dialogue. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah. Plus one, as the kids say, there isn't a human that I know, that I've encountered and they may exist, who doesn't have an internal drive to feel seen and to belong wherever they are and to be a part of, right? We are social animals. And so this notion that diversity means black and brown or diversity, whatever definition it has been used as a euphemism for, I think it's almost a PR nightmare for the work because the reality is it's just about kindness and appreciation and effort, at bringing someone into and folding them into the community and seeing the value that they bring, right? And so I think what's... Go ahead. Obviously. Yeah. 

Dr. Joel: When... So if I work with... I remember once I was working with the Department of the Military and there were a bunch of skeptics in the room. So I said to them, when you work with your counterparts, let's say in the UK or France, what are some things that you had to take into account? They said, oh, different ways of working, language, time. So they listed a number of different factors and I said great. So you recognize the importance of diversity and inclusion in those situations. Why is it hard to recognize that here within the States? Because we work and live in a very multicultural country and not everybody has the same reality. You travel any distance. So let's say between, I'm usually going between New York and California. They're vastly different regions. They're vastly different cultures and ways of being. The same thing applies, right?

Dr. Joel: To your point, no one I know doesn't want to feel included. And I don't pretend to speak for the billions of people on the rock, but I don't know anyone who doesn't want to feel included, engaged, seen, visible, and doesn't want to feel that sense of belonging. And I think that is what is played out, particularly in our societies, a number of people don't feel seen, a number of people don't feel heard, and so that's why you've seen some of the dynamics that we've seen recently. And I would say, probably going back to for probably decades at this point, hundreds of years where people are not feeling seen and heard and respected and valued. The question is, to whom do we give the honor of being seen and to whom do we give the honor of being respected and feeling included and having that sense of belonging? Because that's not been treated equitably during the course of certainly U.S. history, but also human history as well. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah, absolutely. So in thinking about that, there is this good for humans, and there's also this good for business. 

Dr. Joel: Yeah. 

Natasha Nuytten: Like when we get the most out of our teams, when we think about leadership and the most effective leaders in history get the most out of their teams, and people feel good. And when they feel good, they contribute and they feel like they're a part of something. So in thinking about how all of this contributes to business and better business outcomes, I think the argument can really be made that, diversity and inclusion and equity are good for business. But I'm curious as to why specifically for you, belonging and inclusion are such, beyond diversity itself, the belonging and inclusion part of humans is so foundational to some of the work that you are doing and your team is doing with different organizations around the globe. 

Dr. Joel: There's so many different ways I can answer that. I think, businesses, number one, consist of people and the people have to have effective relationships in order to accomplish the organizational objective. And so from a very basic level, you have to have a situation where it behooves leaders to make sure that people feel recognized and valued, particularly when you're working longer than perhaps we have in modern era than ever before. So if people are working for nine, 10, 12 hours, why would you want someone to come to a place where they feel depressed or oppressed or whatnot? And I, but I do think there is a, there's been a fundamental shift over the past century in terms of what work is supposed to be. I remember it was 20 years ago, there was a Congresswoman running, I believe she was from Oklahoma. And she said, work is not supposed to be fun. And I said, ooh, I don't agree with that. And, she said it and there were a number of people cheering behind her and she really believed what she said. And I think there are a number, there still is that idea out there that work is about grinding. I'm sure you've heard it. During COVID, I heard a lot of people say, this isn't the time to reflect. This is a time to grind it, to make that money. And I think part of that's coming from a capitalistic model that exploits people and robs people of their humanity. I think we've seen the how far that can go. And we've seen, I think some of the low-level behaviors and some of the low-level results that happen by pushing people to their limits and treating people as robots and not having people feel seen, heard, and valued and people not working in safe conditions or not being recognized or valued for their contributions or not. People just like me receiving the customary hello or good morning, the greeting or the check-in. And so it's fundamental to me because of my experiences of being in organizations and not feeling seen and heard and saying, this is depressing my output. This is not helping me to contribute more. And I see how it's also impacting other people. And I think what happens is people become wedded to and need to take care of their families and become wedded to money and a livelihood. So they stay in these situations because they have to. But I think if you were to look at the data and the statistics, people want more engagement. People want to feel purpose. People want to feel connected. I don't think people are necessarily looking to go to work all the time if like they have the best friend sitting next to them, but at the very least, they don't want to have their humanity diminished. And we see this in varying degrees all around the world. Strangely, one of the places where I work routinely is in Europe and they have the lowest level of engagement of any place in the world, right? The US is one of the best places, but there still is a sizable percentage of the population, almost 60% that will tell you, I don't feel connected to my supervisor. I don't feel psychologically safe with my peers or with my leaders. I don't feel connected to the organizational mission. I don't feel like I'm being utilized in a way that best leverages my talents. I don't know or feel like I'm seen or valued. And so then that has repercussions because you have an entire class of people going to work who don't feel seen for 10, 12 hours a day. So then what does that do for us as human beings? What's it do for our communities? What does it do for our globe when people are working and consistently, almost every single day, don't feel seen, valued, and heard, or respected? And they're simply doing that. They're operating like machines, just trying to output. So that means at some level, what we are producing becomes soulless, becomes humanless in the way that we interact with people, becomes soulless and humanless, which means that we become more disconnected, which is what I think we're seeing in the larger stratosphere is we have a disconnected sense of humanity. What a lot of people don't realize right now is that there's a loneliness epidemic that is taking place across the world. So you have places like Denmark, where there are 70 municipalities that signed onto a compact to say, we've got to address loneliness. We know that in places like New Zealand and the UK, they dedicated a higher percentage of their budget to actually addressing loneliness. We're seeing greater forms of extremism, and I think all of which is about people wanting to feel connected and not feeling connected, and so they reach, look for any place where they can get any form of validation, even if it's a place that ultimately is not in their favor. It's not going to serve their highest good in some place that's negative. So it's a hollowing out effect, right? And I think this is why you have the great resignation that started about five to six years ago where people are leaving organizations. I think that's part of the reason why there's difficulty in getting people into the job market and there's less talent out there because people realize this doesn't feel good. This doesn't serve my highest interest. I don't want to mortgage my soul simply to work for an organization that doesn't value me, that can right-size or downsize me right out of a job without a moment's notice. And I think the consequences, unfortunately, we measure these consequences in terms of GDP and money and output and profit margin. I think we're starting to see that, but the question is, are we going to continue to throw money at it or are we going to try to bring more heart into it? Are we going to try to actually address the issue of how do we make sure that people feel more welcomed and more appreciated and more valued? And the organizations that do the best job of that, the ones I think are able to not only maintain their growth, but actually to increase their growth and the organizations that are not are those that are lagging behind and those that will remain or not be employers of choice. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about how you and your team and organizations can do that work of moving forward and creating these better workplaces. And one of the things with your consulting agency, Numos, that you have really gained recognition for is having a really innovative approach around cultivating organizational cultures by integrating storytelling into leadership practices. So I'm curious if we could talk a little bit about how you came to embrace the value of storytelling in leadership and when you realized that there was a power in it for helping to lead well, to lay this groundwork for you to teach others how to do it. 

Dr. Joel: That's a really great question. When did I realize it? I've always been a storyteller. I've always been a poet. I've always been curious about people's stories, who they are, where they come from, what they're trying to achieve. And, you and I talked about this before, maybe it's just being apart from the Midwest, always wanting to go a little bit deeper and not just talk about the superficial things that people discuss. I think what I realized, again, is waking up one day, going into work and realizing I spend a lot of time with these people, but I don't know anything about them. I don't have any connection to them. They don't have any connection to me. How is this going to work? Because I find myself driving very reluctantly into the office, but then speeding away as soon as four o'clock would hit for checkout from my last corporate gig. And I needed to do something different. And I remember, I'll never forget this, I remember I worked for a legal outfit and I wanted just to get to know the head of the department. So I put a calendar invite or sent out a calendar invite to have lunch. And I'll never forget the response I got back. It said, what is this? And so I responded to the person to say, you've said that you have a vision for this group. I'd like to introduce myself. I'd like to know more about your vision, how I can contribute. I'd like to share my talents and my story and understand your story so that we can have greater alignment and greater synchronization. As a kid said, he wasn't feeling it. So that didn't happen. But then I thought to myself, what a missed opportunity. Someone who is ambitious, energetic, and excited wants to talk with you about how we can do better. And you basically just dismiss me and have no desire to meet with me at all. And I see that quite a bit. So one of the things I talk with leaders about, because when they talk about, when you talk to companies and you talk to leaders around making the organization more human-centered and making them more people-centered, they usually will say, okay what do we need to do? So they'll get out their notepad and they're very focused and they want to take notes and say what do we do? Tell me what to do. And I said we have to think about what you are embodying first. I remember saying that to one particular client, and I would say for probably a year, they struggled with this whole idea of being this. What do you mean I have to be someone different? And I said I said, one thing we had to recognize was coaching and personal development. I'm not asking you to be something different. I'm asking you to be a better version of yourself. I said, so there's a difference. And I said, what I'm saying to you is when people engage you, if you want people to be open and you want there to be this humanness, then you have to create a psychologically safe organization and culture. And the way that you build a psychologically safe culture is by modeling vulnerability, by modeling the behaviors and the attitudes and the ways of being that you want other people to emulate. So if you're saying that people want people to be open first of all, is it safe for them to be open? And what does that look like? And how are you being open? So when you come in, are you engaging people? Are you sharing with them not just a little bit about who you are, but what are you focused on? What are you feeling confident about? Or what are areas where perhaps there's struggle or there's some dynamism where you're growing? And I said, and these are things that you can't just do on Monday and think that's it. You have to do them constantly and continuously and also be patient and flexible to recognize that everybody's coming from a different place. Not everybody is going to have that same level of energy because we all have this thing called trauma of having worked in other places where that has been not only discouraged, but punished. And so it has to be a constant thing where you show up and say, this is who I am as a leader. This is what I am focusing on and creating time for people to be human, have check-ins. I sometimes even ask leaders, let's do a hello inventory. And they say what do you mean by hello inventory? Who do you speak to? Who do you trust? Who do you know a little something about? Who do you go to for advice? Who do you engage beyond the niceties? That will tell you a lot about who you value and who you don't value. Then what it comes down to is you have to continue to model this. And then how do you build and inspire people to do this on a regular basis? And what are some of the incentives and ways that you can do this? Are you creating space for people to talk about their journeys, particularly when something's happening in the world that's directly impacting their community? Are they able to bring that in? Are you asking them to keep that out because the quote is unquote, that's personal stuff, even though you may sit in community or have stakeholders and clients who are directly impacted by the very thing that you're trying to run away from? And then if you, once you emulate that, it has to be something that you encourage among your leaders at all levels of the organization. What we often know is that people don't leave organizations and leave their managers. And I have seen a number of situations where people, the C-suite gets it. And, they're talking the right talk. They're walking the right walk. They are sharing their stories. They're trying to be vulnerable. They're trying to be open. And that doesn't mean sharing your deepest, darkest secrets. I wanted to share that because sometimes people think that. But are you really also holding your other leaders accountable to do the same thing? Because that's how cultural change happens with accountability. And I have seen too many organizations that say that they're invested in doing this work and wanting to change the culture, but not creating any type of incentives for people to actually do the work, which means the work doesn't get done. If I don't have any incentive to show up and to be vulnerable or to invest in my people, to pour a little bit of light into them, to add some, quote unquote, water to the soil, then why would they do any differently? And sometimes that means that you have to make some very difficult choices. But the first thing you have to do is show people the way, because what seems intuitive, what seems easy, what seems familiar oftentimes is not. And I know that in my consulting practice, just telling people to be vulnerable or to engage in this beingness wasn't easy. And a lot of people didn't know what that was like because they had built their career on being something different, focusing on facts and data and processes and coming up with really great economic or business models from whatever business school they went to. But they had lost the EQ and the, I would say, the CQ, the cultural intelligence of how to engage. And so it really requires people to commit themselves to work over a long period. And that's just a starting point with it. The best leaders, I think, are open to that and recognize that. Unfortunately, there are too few who are willing to take that because it's time consuming. They don't see a direct correlation with the money that they're making or because they've been doing something for so long that to try to get them to go in a different direction is something that they just are, they don't find attractive or that they refuse to do. So it's really about beingness and being able to model the vulnerability and to model the openness and the transparency, which then helps to support psychological safety. We know from any type of psychology class that people don't feel safe if they don't feel like they can show up and they feel like they're going to be the nail that gets hammered down. Then it becomes impossible to have any conversations around community engagement, wages, compensation, leadership training, and the list goes on and on. So that first foundational piece of psychological safety has to be created. And that's done by modeling vulnerability and showing up in a way that exhibits these humanistic behaviors of curiosity, empathy, relatability for people, and also showing the resilience that you continue to show up every single day, even if the results are not instant or instantaneous. But to show the conviction that I'm going to continue to model this type of behavior and to be reliable to the people I work with so that we're not just passing each other in empty hallways or in elevators where we really don't have any type of relationship. 

Natasha Nuytten: There's an interesting thing that you talk about, the paradox, right? But I think in applying it, that word sits here for me because before you're in leadership, your role has been doing, it's working on the business, it is or working in the business. It is doing, it is checking boxes, it is get achievements and success. And as you move into leadership, while your responsibility is bigger and you are responsible for all of these people doing, the work that you do actually shifts to being less about doing the things that have put you in this role and more about the things that enable other people to do the things that make the organization successful. And it's that shift, I think, sometimes that can be hard. And if you've been, you think that leaders aren't just, they don't come out of the womb, ready to lead an organization. Some people do, but there is a, in a recognition, in a career trajectory, you don't just jump right into a, I'm leading a company and I'm leading a team, right? You've done this work. And so there is a mindset shift that has to change from my job is doing this piece of work to make this company successful to my job is still to make this company successful, but to do so by empowering all of these other people to be their best selves and do their best work. And that can be really challenging because maybe you haven't been looking at yourself very closely for those, however many years before you got to that role, or maybe, maybe you set aside some of that self-awareness or vulnerability to get to do and achieve and accomplish. And you thought that was the way to get there. We can have the argument, the whole conversation around that's probably not the best way to get there, but choices are made. And so then to make the shift that like, oh, the reality is I need to now live in this space to help achieve. I think there's just a really big shift that needs to happen. If a leader is really going to step into leadership, it's the same, it's the same sort of thing we run into where we make individual contributors managers because they're really great at their role. But doing and managing people are two very different things. And this is like when you get into those, you get into executive leadership, it's just, amplified, 10x that sort of situation where you're not doing your, you're doing the leading. So yeah, there's a real significant mind shift there. So I'm curious, you all do a lot of work in coming into organizations, helping leaders at all levels, really of the organization, because it's not just upper, upper management that, that is leaders, do this work. I'm curious if some of the wisdom and experience that you've gleaned from your own life, that you've written very eloquently about in your beautiful book, The Wisdom of Queer Folks, The Spirit of Queer Folks, excuse me, I'm curious if you, sorry, The Souls of Queer Folks.

Natasha Nuytten: It's all good. I'm just excited. It's all the things, the spirit, the wisdom, the souls, all the things coming together. I'm curious how you've translated, how you've been able to make that transition yourself from the doing into the awareness around leading so that you could bring that wisdom to the table to help people make that transition from doing to being and helping other people do. 

Dr. Joel: I made that transition by examining my own, in some cases, torture relationship with business and with the corporate world and with the way leadership has been framed and saying, this doesn't work for me. And thinking that I was the only one, so I'll tell you a quick story. So I remember, I worked for a big firm in Minneapolis a long time ago as a lawyer. And all this time, I sat in my office, I did all the lawyerly things. I wrote memos, I did research, I talked lawyerly, I acted lawyerly, whatever that meant, until I realized it just didn't work for me. And so at some point I said, okay, I need to make a shift. I need to go in a different direction. And all this time I'm talking to junior associates and senior associates and partners, and they're saying to me, this is what you have to do. Essentially, you have to drink the Kool-Aid. As soon as I announced that I was going to go in a different direction, I was gonna leave the firm, I was amazed how many people came out of the woodwork and pulled me aside to say, you're making the right decision. And they whispered like that. And I would say why do you say that? You don't have a spouse, you don't have kids, you have freedom, so you can make different decisions. A number of people said to me, you don't have a mortgage, you don't have financial obligations, so now is the time for you to do what you really wanna do. And if I were in the situation as you, I'd do the same thing. So then that led me to ask the question: why is it, number one, that we're having this conversation now? Because I've been here for almost two years. Why are we having this conversation now as opposed to week one or in month three about what's happening and how it's not serving anybody? Because from the conversations, a number of people said this wasn't working. And people said there was fear, there was concern, there was a fundamental misunderstanding about what leadership is. And again, people just got into the machine, they got into the system, and the system produces the results it's intended to result, it's intended to produce, excuse me. And, voila, there's become this kind of unconscious replication of behavior where you don't have time to reflect and see what's wrong with the system. You're too busy just perpetuating the system as it is. So when I left the firm, and, I had a couple of periods there where I wasn't working one period for about six months, which was really rough, it gave me time to reflect on what is it that I am contending with and struggling with, and also what is it that others are struggling with? So sometimes being at the margins or being at the edge of the system can give you that clarity and that insight. And I realized that part of the issue was this concept of leadership that, frankly, I don't think works for a lot of people, where leadership is seen as being very militaristic, is being very, it's very hierarchical, it can be very patriarchal, it can be very, white dominated, and it's not working for a lot of people. And it's not just, the gay black dude who wrote the book, it's also not working for a number of people where they say, I just don't feel that this has helped me to be the best version of myself, I don't feel like this is really helping the organization, or yes, we have this purpose, but I'm seeing that we're not meeting this purpose. So for me, then I started to say what is it about leadership that I've learned that I have to unlearn? And I had to, and it didn't take me very long, because none of it really resonated with me to begin with, I had to be okay with letting go of this individualistic model, this model where it's all about, the top down leadership, because I'm much more of a collaborative person, I'm much more of a, let's support each other, I'm much more of a, again, a community builder, and, someone who likes to bring creativity, innovation and whatnot, and to give people the freedom to do things in their own way and to fashion their own form of leadership. So instead of everybody emulating Tom, I want people to be themselves. And then I realized that a lot of what we think about in terms of leadership comes from business school. And I thought I didn't learn how to be a leader from my mom. I learned how to be a leader from my grandfather. I learned how to be a leader reading the books of, and learning from people like Audre Lorde and Malcolm X and other places. And so why is it that we think that leadership is only good when it comes from someone who has a BBA? Leadership is something that I've learned just by looking in the mirror and having to come up or to be clear about my own journey and to separate myself from the norms and values and practices of larger society. And that's when I said, we have to decolonize this idea of leadership because I don't think it's working. And I think this idea of leadership is toxic. And it's the silent epidemic that is hurting a lot of people that no one is really talking about. And so for me, I realized I got familiar with feminine leadership. And then I realized that as a black person and also as a queer person, there was so much that I learned that was not necessarily written in a book per se that I study that really helped me to be better, whether it's around adaptability. So knowing how to go from my inner city community and crossing several different communities and knowing how to adapt and knowing how to co-switch so that when I walked into different places, I knew how to adapt. It was the resilience that my mom taught me that I saw from her, that I saw from everybody in my community. It was the servant leadership. It was the collaboration. And those are the things that I said we first I wanted to embrace because I had been walking with these sort of traits, but not really acknowledging them. I self-casetimed me to know this is who I am. But then recognizing that these things are what I think more people want and we need to start having honest conversations. And so as I started talking to people and also as I built my company, I said, I want to build my company differently so that people are able to be leaders, but they're able to be leaders in a way that really affirm who they are and take the best of who they are as opposed to focusing on the worst of who they are. And they're not built on things such as showmanship or just a cult of personality. And I remember once too, before I left the legal field, I was in front of a group of people. There was some question that I posed. And then the question was redirected back to me by my supervisor, what do you think? And I said I believe or I feel that. And I gave the answer, which was correct. But I was later coached to say that saying, I feel or I believe showed weakness. And I said, this is really fascinating that shows weakness because, yeah, I just never imagined that. So I had to divorce myself. So much of what they say is you have to unlearn what you've learned. I had to divorce myself from a very toxic form of leadership and say, there's a new way that we can be that. I think a number of people intuitively know works and fits who they are, but have not been given permission or license to showcase that. And so that's something that I brought into my organization. And then when I talk to other people that work with organizations, I say to them, and I love what you said, everyone is a leader, okay? Everyone has ability, competency. The question is, are you showcasing that? Are you allowing that to be nurtured and to grow? Are you stifling that? And a lot of the way that people lead is based on their view of humanity. If you view humanity as something that is sinister, as something that needs to be controlled, as something that is dangerous, then that will dictate your leadership style. But if you see humanity as something that can be affirmative, something that can be value added, if you see people as rich resources, which I think everyone is, then you're gonna lead very differently. So that was when I really started to reshape how I looked at leadership, how I looked at consulting, and also recognizing too, my job as a consultant is not to force an outcome, but to help build awareness. So much of my work early on in my career, I worked really hard. I was really pushing things and really working strenuously to get people to understand stuff, but people are not going to do anything that's beyond their understanding until they have really understood it for themselves. And so now I have a different approach where it's all about building awareness and helping people to realize and to see their own reality and to see their own potential and to see things in their own way. And by doing so, that's how you can help transform organizations is helping people to become, to be more aware of the circumstances that they see, more aware of who they are, again, going back to the beingness piece, but more aware of what's happening around them and helping them to make informed choices so that it's not about me or my agenda or what I believe that you should do is help you to realize what I think is in the best interest. And sometimes that is recognizing we're not at a place where we really want to grow. Sometimes it's helping people to realize you say that you want to do this work around equity and belonging and inclusion, but you really don't. So what's the lesson in this for you? And letting them learn from their mistakes because there is something rich and powerful and educational and developmental about helping people learn from their mistakes. And then saying, maybe at another time, when you're ready, we can have this conversation, but this is all that I'm here to do now to help you realize that for all your words and your slogans and for your cheerleading, you're really not ready. And based on our value system, we're going to work with those who are. And if you're not ready to eat what we're serving, that's fine, but I want to place my energy with places and with people and organizations that do. And letting go of the attachment to those sorts of results. I used to take it as a, I used to treat it as a sign of my effectiveness if people were not ready. And I let go of that idea and realized that everybody has a goal in their own time. Everybody's on their own journey and their own path is right for them. But my talents are best suited to work with organizations and people who are ready, who are primed, even though they're not perfect, because no one is, but those who are ready to take the plunge, who are ready to ask the difficult questions, who are ready to face themselves and really want to do the work and really recognize, I don't have all the answers, but I recognize I want to do better by my people. I want to do better by the community. I want to do better by myself. And so there is a kind of a rubric that we look at when we work with organizations because we want to make sure that they're operating with integrity and ethics and that they are clear about why they're doing this work and they're doing it for the right reasons, not just to make more money. And so that's how things have shifted for me in 20 years. 20 plus years of doing this work is re-evaluating leadership and focusing on building the awareness and not necessarily trying to lead people to an outcome because no outcome will be sustained if the awareness and the learning is not integrated into who they are. 

Natasha Nuytten: Here's the problem, Joel. I have 47 more questions based on that and I don't have time for that. So I'm gonna land on two if that's okay. 

Dr. Joel: Absolutely, yeah. 

Natasha Nuytten: The first question I will ask is, and this I think could be an entire hour, so I understand, I'll take 30 seconds. Are there one or two sort of fundamental questions that I can ask myself if I'm thinking, am I ready to really dive into this work? Are there one or two questions that you would recommend someone start with? 

Dr. Joel: Great question. Can I be comfortable with discomfort? I think that's the one question that pops to mind. And am I okay with examining all that I know and all that I think I know in pursuit of a greater truth? If a person cannot be, a lot of people mistake danger for discomfort. If you're not comfortable with discomfort, if you don't have a growth mindset, if you're not willing to examine all of who you are, which doesn't mean that you discard it, it just means that you go through a process of reflection and self-discovery to see, is this really serving me and is this really serving the purpose that I say that I have allegiance to? Then you might not be ready, right? So those are some questions that I ask people. And it's okay if you're not. It's just for the sake of the organization, for the sake of the people you serve, for the sake of the consumer, the stakeholders, it's really important to be clear on where you stand and to be clear on what your journey is. And even to share that journey as a way of helping to start that process for other people who may be at a similar place, who may feel stuck or may feel reticent or may be fearful. It's a normal reaction to be fearful, but we know that courage is going forward in the face of the fear, even when you don't have all the answers or you can't control the outcome. 

Natasha Nuytten: Those are great questions, because am I willing to be uncomfortable? 

Dr. Joel: Yeah. 

Natasha Nuytten: And am I genuinely, truly ready to look at the things I know or think I know? Those are excellent questions, and they're big, right? Those are big questions, but you're right, they are just so fundamental and foundational to any kind of change happening. But such great preparatory work, right? Questions to ask, because if you can't answer that in the affirmative, there's like a whole bunch of other work you can do to get there. So that's awesome, I love that. And then I guess, because I wanna respect your time, is there anything that, like I said, I have 47 questions just out of the last question I asked you, but is there anything that I should have asked you today or something that you would like to leave us with before we wrap? 

Dr. Joel: Yeah, I would love to come back and answer those 47 questions. I think the questions you asked were appropriate based on where we were. So one thing I would leave people with, I would say this, the power, when we think about a story, we're not just one story, we are receptacles of many stories. It is important as we think about this current time, which would be January 30th, 2025, to remember the stories of when we've been resilient, when we've been strong, when we have been confused, when we've had to overcome, when we've had to push through to get beyond. Those stories are gonna serve us. Those stories are gonna help us, not only from the individual perspective, but from the collective perspective. Everything that we're dealing with, whether it's around, there's new names. So for example, COVID, climate change, immigration, et cetera, et cetera, leadership. All these questions have been dealt with time and time before in many different ways and many different aspects. And it's important to fall back on our own innate wisdom, and it's important to fall back on the wisdom and the traditions of various communities who can give us insight as to how we move forward. It is when we ignore the history, the stories, and the wisdom that has already been gifted to us that we end up spinning and recreating realities and experiences that only re-traumatize us and cause us to suffer. So I'm hoping that this is a time we can trust that we have enough wisdom, and also study the examples of the countless women and African-Americans and Latinas and Asians and Native American or indigenous folk or LGBTQ elders and those who are disabled, those who are non-native, those who are immigrant, those who are from the global South and learn from them, study them to show enough humility, respect, and deference to trust that other people can give us and entrust us with information and knowledge, whether from a bygone era, whether from a far-flung country that can help us to move forward, whether it's around leadership or any of the issues that we're dealing with in today's day. That's the message that I would leave us with as of today. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah, amen. Yeah, I would love to do a part two around wisdom. I feel like we've laid a really great foundation here, and now I wanna build on how we help move. So yes, please. Yes, absolutely. In the interim, how can we be as listeners and as a community, and I take that word pretty seriously, how can we be helpful to you in the work that you're doing? 

Dr. Joel: Oh, two things. Take care of yourselves, because I think that when people take care of themselves, you have to take care of the planet. Number two, community is always important to me, and leadership is a lonely position. I think about Dr. King and how he struggled, and one of many people, I think one of the enduring lessons from the civil rights movement is we have to learn to take care of ourselves, and I take care of myself by being in community with people, because sometimes it can feel isolating, lonely, alienating, so reach out. I am now rethinking my relationship with social media, and so for right now, I can tell you I'm definitely on LinkedIn. Joel Davis Brown can find me on Instagram. I am not active on Facebook, and don't know how much longer I'll be active on Instagram, but reach out. Please say hello. Please share wisdom, thought, knowledge, and affirmation. There may be things that I can, there are things I can benefit from that other people will share. So those are the two things I would say to the listeners, to the audience, and to you, is just to stay, to continue to make contact, to go back to what we talked about before, and to take care of yourselves, because by seeing people shine their light, that gives me inspiration to continue to shine my light. And thank you for being and doing what you're doing, and for being a source of light and building this platform that you have. 

Natasha Nuytten: Thank you for sharing. I love that. All right. We will circle back with you, for sure, because I am excited to continue this conversation, and I thank you so much for the work you're doing, the groundedness with which you bring this wisdom, and I look forward to diving into a part two with you. 

Dr. Joel: Absolutely. I look forward to it. Be well. Thank you. Thank you. And gratitude to everyone out there. 

Natasha Nuytten: See? I told you. Just a delightful conversation. Such a grounded human being. I loved every bit of that, and I'm really looking forward to being able to follow up and share part two of our conversation and discussion, in where we're gonna talk a little bit more about some of the practical how-to, and some of the steps that we might take to do our own work, and then lay foundations in our organization. I'm really looking forward to this. Thank you. Tell us what you thought of the episode. Make sure you check out below how you can get in touch with Joel and reach out to him and throw some light and cast some light into his world as he's doing for all of us. And I look forward to seeing you next time.