How Empathy Drives Business Success | Union Pacific VP, Tonya Eggspuehler & RISE CEO, Jeremy Bouman

Natasha Nuytten: [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to Human Side Up. I'm Natasha Nuytten, your host, and I'm really excited to bring something to you that is near and dear to my heart today. It's a conversation with Tanya Eggspiller, who is the Vice President of Organizational Development and Total Rewards at Union Pacific Railroad, and my friend Jeremy Bowman, who is the founder and CEO of RISE, which is a nonprofit organization in the state of Nebraska dedicated to aiding the reentry process for justice-impacted individuals and their families. The conversation was incredible. It was a really delightful exploration of the partnership between RISE and Union Pacific as an example of how you can create inclusive, successful business environments in which diversity of experience is valued, and each human is given the space to thrive, and traditional organizations like a railroad can tap into incredible, resilient, [00:01:00] resourceful talent to make a difference both in their organization and in their community. It was a really great conversation, and of course, we talked a lot about leadership as well, and Tanya and Jeremy both lead with empathy and compassion. I've had the opportunity to see Jeremy lead up close, and he loves his team. His team is growing. They're developing. They're doing incredible work. They, as a whole, over the last few years have helped reduce recidivism in the state of Nebraska by almost 7%, which is just absolutely phenomenal, and the organization really emphasizes not only preparing individuals for successful reentry, but educating the community and welcoming them as returning citizens and really advocating for policy change. It was a great conversation. I'm really excited to share this with you, and if you have any interest in learning more, please reach out. I'd be happy to make some connections and help you learn more for your own organization or for your own [00:02:00] individual growth. I look forward to sharing this conversation with you, and thanks for listening. Tanya and Jeremy, I'm so excited to have you both here with me today. Welcome to Human Side Up, where we talk about, humans at work, messy, but all the good stuff. That's where the good stuff is, too, so thank you both for being here. Full disclosure for listeners, I invited Jeremy and Tanya here because I serve on the board of RISE, the board of directors, with Tanya of this wonderful organization that Jeremy and his team have here in Nebraska. We're going to get all into it, but just wanted to be really clear on the front about why they're here, why I'm excited, why you might see me cry. I'm, just one of those sometimes, but I'm really glad to have you here because the [00:03:00] idea, one of the things that we talk about on this podcast a lot when it has to do with leadership and how we create inclusive spaces has to do with that diversity is not, it's not a euphemism for black and brown. Diversity is a lot of different things, and the space that you work in with second chance hiring and, Tanya, in your industry railroad even that has its own set of considerations. And really want to be thoughtful about the fact that when we're including these spaces and we're creating them as leaders and thinking about how to do that, that we're not just talking about racial and ethnic inclusion, we're really talking about experiential inclusion in a really different way. And I'm really excited to learn from both of you. Thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. 

Jeremy Bowman: Yeah, excited to be here. 

Natasha Nuytten: Absolutely. One of the things that we kick off the podcast with as a general rule is learning a little bit about you. I would love to ask you both, the question is a [00:04:00] two-parter, is there any one or two words, are there any one or two words that either of you or each of you would use to describe yourself that we might not find on your CV or your resume that have really become a part of the fabric of who you are as a leader and as a human? And if so, how did you start to learn those things about yourself and embrace them? Oh, I am actually fill in the blank. Is there anything you could share in that regard? 

Tonya Eggspuehler: Yeah, I can. I would say one would be, and you may find it on my resume, but driven. I would say in my personal life and at work, I want to be the best I can every single day. And I would say empathy is a big part of my life as well. I think if you're an empathetic leader, you [00:05:00] get the most out of your team. They're engaged. They're aligned with you. And there's a lot that goes on outside of work too, and you need to be respectful of that with your team. But then also, having two teenage sons, you, empathy, you have to have for them because what they're going through, you may look at as small things. But in their world and at their age, they're big. And you have to, support them as they're going through and learning life too. So those would be my two words. And driven, I just, I want to be the best every single day. And I want to give to my company and my family everything that they deserve too. 

Natasha Nuytten: I love that. 

Natasha Nuytten: Thank you. 

Jeremy Bowman: Yeah, those are great. I would say for me, compassion is a big part of what drives me. [00:06:00] It really is important to the work that we do, serving system-impacted people, getting proximate to challenges that we have in the community requires just compassion and empathy. And I like what Tiny was saying about being driven, but also having empathy. And it reminds me of Jim Collins, that fifth level, level five leader, right? Somebody who's got a real strong professional will and drive, but they also, they show up with a lot of humility and a lot of compassion. So I think I also relate to those. I'm from New York City. And so I have a bit of a driving force, I think, an edge to myself to get things done. And Achiever is my number one Gallup strength. And so I really want to be successful and do really well on the things that I do, but also similar to what Tiny was saying, do things with a lot of humility and [00:07:00] a lot of empathy. 

Natasha Nuytten: That's fantastic. And I just want to, as a piece of feedback to y'all, as I was writing the intro for each of you, driven, Tanya, was one of the words that I had for you. And I respect that. I have a lot of that myself. And Jeremy, compassion was the first word that came to mind for me, for you. So y'all are living the thing. So we're predictable too. Yeah. In all the best ways, in all the best ways. So I love that. That's fantastic. So we talk a lot on this podcast about the importance of doing your own work as a leader so that you can create an environment in which individuals and teams can thrive. And so before getting too specific on the topic at hand or on Second Chance Hiring, I'd love to hear from the two of you, like your own thoughts on what drives you as a leader when it comes to doing your own work and then how you are, how you're taking time in your [00:08:00] day to do that because you're both doing a lot of stuff. 

Jeremy Bowman: Yeah, I think for me, listening is everything. I don't have the lived experience of the people or system impacted in the organization that I serve. And I also believe people closest to the problems have the solutions. So it's important for me to really deeply understand what people need, what their challenges are, what types of practical solutions we can use to look at problems a little bit differently. I'm a learner as high in my Gallup strengths too. And so I do spend a lot of time seeing what are best practices in other places, but also really thinking about the nuances of our own backyard and what specifically works here, might not work here. So just really trying to be really thoughtful [00:09:00] and listening to the expertise of others and then game planning on how, okay, so then how can we win, right? How can we hit the types of really audacious goals that we've set for our organization? 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah, love that. 

Tonya Eggspuehler: Yeah, so I would say in my leadership role, mine is nothing gets done by one person. And we always have a better product when we're collaborating across the organization. I think if you ask anybody on my team, the number one thing they would say, but how does Tanya lead? And it's collaboratively and ensuring whatever we're doing aligns to what the business needs are. And I would say then, thirdly, it's bringing out the best in whoever is on the team and those strengths. And I'm also with Jeremy that if [00:10:00] I find myself talking too much, that's a problem as a leader. You need to listen more than you talk. And, at my level, it's making sure you're collecting everybody's thoughts, their opinions, their perspectives so that you reach the best possible outcome. And that brings out naturally the best in everyone when you create that environment as a leader. And that's how, even Second Chance, what we will talk about, came to be. And it's a program that we're extremely proud of because of how we went about doing that and hearing perspectives. 

Natasha Nuytten: It aligns right with the idea of how diversity is not just for the sake of diversity, but it's great for business, right? Because you solve problems differently. You think [00:11:00] about how we serve differently. Yes. You're able to just really approach and understand the problem differently, right? And so having those perspectives at the table, that diversity, as we said, is not just ethnicity or race. It has to do with, and all of the other classes of protected classes. But also that experience and how I've walked through the world and what I've seen helps me be maybe more resourceful or gritty in the way that I solve problems, for sure. So I love that. So taking just a little baby step to the left here, I would love to just understand we're talking about Second Chance hiring. Obviously, incarceration is its own set of challenges in this country like how and why and when we put people in the system and then what we do with them when they're there. That's an entire, you could do your own podcast, Jeremy, on just that. But I am [00:12:00] curious how you came to this work that you're doing. It is not your background. You've not been, you've not had the lived experience, but you certainly do have, you drive this work and your team, you lead them with such compassion for it. And I'm curious how you arrived here. 

Jeremy Bowman: Yeah, I arrived to this work as a volunteer, and I think just having a lot of curiosity about, not just these systems, but obviously the lives of the people who are impacted by them. And so for a number of years earlier in my career, I volunteered for an hour a week at the local jail where I mentored men who were pre-trial and got to hear their stories and, got to see the micro level themes that were emerging in terms of how many of them were either unemployed or underemployed when they re-offended. How many people of color we were incarcerating that was not in line [00:13:00] with the population of our state and generational incarceration, seeing how many people had grandparents, parents, family members, where it really seemed to be a family affair and thinking about if you have doctors or lawyers or talent management people at Union Pacific in your family, you say, hey, maybe that's something I can do in my future. If incarceration is something that's pervasive in your family, it often becomes, something that you believe is in your future as well and not a matter of if, but when. And so getting to know the folks who are system impacted, understanding their stories and going to their hearings and hearing the types of prison sentences and how out of whack they were with the harm that they had caused. I just really started thinking kind of bigger picture, like from a systems level, this isn't working and, how do we break generational [00:14:00] cycles? Tanya was talking about getting people in the right opportunities based on what their giftedness is. And Natasha, you talked about some of the skills, grit and things like that. And so person after person, I saw people who were very adaptable, people who were very resilient and really persevered through some very challenging times, people who are very entrepreneurial out of necessity. I saw amazing skill sets, ability to deal with conflict in ways that were pretty incredible and really thought, hey, if we have opportunities to bring job readiness training and use entrepreneurship as a tool. For folks who are system impacted, a job is not a silver bullet, but a competitive wage job or the ability to create your own job. You really do see reincarceration go down. And when people are building generational wealth for their families, [00:15:00] that's one way that you can stop this turnstile of incarceration of families. 

Natasha Nuytten: Absolutely. As a business leader whether it's a nonprofit or, industry, revenue solves a lot of problems, right? It's not any different when we have to have revenue coming into our household to maintain. Like that solves a lot of things. And it makes a lot it frees up space to think about other things than just this one major consideration that's right in front of you. So I think that's a really valuable point, Jeremy. So help me understand a little bit and help those folks who are maybe not as familiar with, the impact. Maybe they don't know people who have been through this experience or who have they're not engaged with the community. What are some of the challenges that people have when they're making the transition from being incarcerated, whether it's six months or, 20 years? There [00:16:00] are some similarities, some through lines. I'm and I would think it's fair to say that some of those things get bigger the longer that you are there. But what are some of those through lines that you see as challenges that folks have that RISE is working to address? 

Jeremy Bowman: Yeah, there's so many things that are put in place practically that create natural barriers for people when they come home from carceral facilities. And we always say reentry is crisis. There's 800 industries that categorically will not hire you if you have a felony background. You cannot access public housing. You cannot access food stamps with a felony background. So a lot of the services that we put in place through the government or the community to support people who are economically disadvantaged, we've removed those opportunities for people once they have a felony background. And then there's the stigma of incarceration and the invisible handcuffs people [00:17:00] wear every day, where they're labeled as, criminal or whatever, choose whatever moniker we want to use for system impacted people. And so that creates a lot of challenges. So we've really stacked a deck, not to mention it's very traumatic to do time, no matter how much time you do. It's typically not the most habilitative environment, although there are programs and supports and organizations. It's a very challenging time in your life. It's usually when you've hit low. And we know a lot of people how we've criminalized mental health. There's just a lot of people that have mental health issues or addiction issues. And, incarceration right now is when the only lever society uses to pull when people cause harm that are navigating these different things. So we really try to remove as many barriers as possible barriers to identification. If that's something you need, which everyone [00:18:00] needs to get a job housing, getting make sure people have a parole approved address to go home to and finding competitive wage employment. Really helping bring healing and restoration to families because there's been such a disconnect. And they're just very simple things. We're sitting here on Zoom and you think about technology. And if you've done any time, technology changes very quickly. So we give people smartphones, we show them how to use it. We give them a backpack of towels and, deodorant and shampoo, those kinds, just basic things, because you get one hundred dollars when you leave prison. And, good luck. A hundred 

Natasha Nuytten: dollars hardly gets you an Uber ride from JFK to Manhattan. 

Jeremy Bowman: And, most people will, don't have a bank account. So you take that to check cashing. And what do you have left? You have, 60 bucks or 50 bucks. And so we've really, we're shocked then when people reoffend and go back to prison. And so when you're in an [00:19:00] environment of scarcity and you have to provide and you have to survive, we have to give people opportunities to, to legal livelihoods, to opportunities to, to have careers and access to competitive wage legal employment. 

Natasha Nuytten: Now, I will say one of the things that I think that I value so much about the work that you do, which is one of the things I was drawn to, is, like my own father was incarcerated and he struggled his entire life to exactly what you said, get over the stigma of that, both externally as the way that people looked at him, but also internally, right? It felt like a failure. Yeah, it felt like something he had, he had done wrong. When really you look at the system put you there, just given his background. And so it really is a constellation of things that need to be addressed. And so we're looking at this one. I know that you all do a lot of work [00:20:00] pre-release while folks are still incarcerated and also support for the families. And, it's not just one person. Like one person can't dance alone. I guess one person can dance alone. But if you change the steps and you're dancing with someone else, you both have to change, right? Or somebody's toes get stepped on. So I know you all do some of that, which I think is wonderful. And it's one of the reasons why I signed up to ride this ride with you, because I think the work you're doing is so important. And I'm curious, Tanya, from your perspective, on the other side, as folks have come out. And I would love for you to give us a little bit of context for people who are thinking about how do we potentially incorporate this? What do we start to think about?

Natasha Nuytten: There's a certain amount that you can do, right? And a certain amount that you can't. So can you walk us a little bit through how your company at Union Pacific has made the adjustment and transition into being able to do some of the second chance hiring? 

Tonya Eggspuehler: Yeah, so [00:21:00] what I tell people is it's a journey. And the reason I say that is because I believe companies should walk before you run. Don't just jump in to this because there's internally work that needs to be done before you move into second chance hiring. You have to make sure that your leaders are on board and supportive, which when we'd started our program in 2021, we had our CEO and our CHROs full support because when they learned there's, 70 million in the US with criminal backgrounds, that's untapped talent. And when unemployment rates are down and you hear that, it's a great opportunity, but you need to look internally at your policies, your procedures. And, here at Union Pacific, safety is number one for us. And we have [00:22:00] to take that into account too with criminal records and, have some standards too and certain practices just to make sure that we handle this appropriately and then get hiring managers on board, but then also make sure we have a confidential process. You talk about the stigma, just like any other hire that we have, one, we're hiring the most qualified, but two, we don't share everybody's background and experiences, and that's no different for the second chance hire. So we needed to make sure that our processes too were anonymous and confidential for our second chance hires. And then I say, we have careers, we don't have that additional support that RISE offers. So we needed those community partnerships to help us be successful, but not all community partnerships are created equal. What did we need [00:23:00] for our employees to be successful and what community partnerships would provide that for us?  

Natasha Nuytten: Can you double click for me a little bit on a couple of things. One, I'd love to understand, and I don't need all the details, but just some sort of maybe suggestions and examples of how maybe from a policy perspective and in the hiring process itself, or were there impact on your benefits or was there an impact on how you handle feedback? I'd love to just see where you saw, oh, as you said, we have to walk before we run. Oh, we learned we needed to do A, B, or C to make this successful. 

Tonya Eggspuehler: Yeah, so it's really looking at your background policy and just making sure there aren't blanket exclusions. And the reason being is because our judicial system has [00:24:00] deemed that they have completed their time for the crime that was committed. And you have to make sure in order to make even our communities safer is that recidivism and understanding and selling that kind of internally that poverty is the number one reason why there's recidivism and that's where we as a company can help because we're big as a company to say the communities in which we live and work is one of our key stakeholders. And as a business, this is also how we can help. So it's looking at that background policy, but then really making sure culturally that we're ready for this too. Jeremy talked about stigma. Natasha, you talked about stigma. That's real. And [00:25:00] how can you get those making the decisions bought in and past that stigma through this to make sure when these individuals come on that again, they have that leadership support that they need. Those are the types that the two things I would say were the most critical. Plus, we want to make sure we retain who we hire. No matter who we hire, we want to retain. And as long as they perform, right? Let me say that. But the resources, we don't also want to treat consistency is key. So we want to make sure these individuals have the resources that they may need because I can't provide them transportation to work. That's a requirement of our position. You have to have [00:26:00] transportation to and from work. And those types boots, we need steel-toed boots for the majority of our field personnel. Steel-toed boots are not cheap, right? So we've changed it for all hires. We've realized that may be a barrier of entry to our company as we were looking at this. So now new hires receive a certificate for boots as well. Not just, you don't have to be a current employee. That didn't take a community partnership, but we needed to understand what's a barrier of entry to our company. 

Natasha Nuytten: I love that, Tonya, because are you familiar with the brand OXO, O-X-O? They have like kitchen products. Yeah. So I refer to them a lot because they came out of wanting to help [00:27:00] folks who had arthritis and other sort of disabilities and elderly folks. But really what they ended up doing was designing stuff that's better for everybody, right? And when we think about inclusion and how we help people thrive at work, that's a great example of how everyone needs this. So how can we as a company address this, right? And remove that barrier. So I think that's a really thoughtful way of approaching how we help make it more accessible to people and easier for them to get in. Jeremy, I would love, you've, Tonya's industry is very specific and you've worked with organizations across all kinds of industries and of all sorts of different sizes. Some maybe don't have the same kinds of budgets that UP has where they can give a certificate for boots. What are some of the things that you might put on the radar for folks who are thinking about doing these types of things? Where are some places where you've seen, oh, [00:28:00] hey, this was a, we didn't know that was coming, but we've, we've seen it now a couple of times. What are maybe some of those examples? 

Jeremy Bowman: Yeah, from an employer standpoint, I think Tonya's point about, hey, we went slow, right? There was a lot of learning that we had to do. I think there's a lot of employers that don't know what they can or can't ask. They don't always know what it means when somebody is on parole and what transportation barriers there might be. And we really look at our work as a value proposition to employers. There's, no certainty in any hiring, as I'm sure Tonya is familiar. And so we really try to have this value proposition. Hey, if you hire one of our program graduates, this is somebody who did a really hard, rigorous six-month pre-release program where they were doing 15 to 20 hours a week of [00:29:00] work in our program, doing inside work, looking inside and, building blocks around how do we deal with shame and conflict resolution and accountability and forgiveness and etiquette and parenting, but also what's our plan and what are our gifts, telling people what they're good at that have been told their whole life they're not and figuring out, fit to role and fit to organization based on what somebody's skillset is. And employers really are looking at us to prepare people to be good teammates, to come in and be hard workers. They can teach the skill. They say, we don't need your help with that. And there's community colleges that are doing quite a bit of that skill training in our facilities where people can get up-skilled, but they want people who are gonna be good teammates. And we are, when they hire one of our grads, they hire us because that employee for them has a [00:30:00] re-entry navigator from RISE who's likely also been system impacted. If there's challenges, we can come in and help diagnose what's happening. We've built up a lot of trust with these individuals for years, pre and post-release, so they know us very well. And so we can be a partner for employers to educate their leadership people, to educate their managers and say, hey, this is what we're looking for if we send somebody to you to make sure that they feel safe, right? That they don't feel excluded or that there's a microscope that they're under. We really want them to just feel like this is a safe place for them to work. And so we've seen all kinds of situations. Natasha, I think the one that comes to mind that happens too frequently is people will get hired and they'll start a job. [00:31:00] I think about a guy who was working in manufacturing and his life's dream was to sell Subarus. He just loved Subarus. And so he got a job to do that. He got a job to sell Subarus and he was killing it. And then two weeks into his employment, they finally got his background check stuff back, which he had been open about with the employer and they let him go. And I think too many times people are given opportunities and they'll go through a wall for these opportunities. Our population coming home, they're the hardest workers you're gonna find. There's a Johns Hopkins study about how you can retain workers that are system impacted at a higher level than those that aren't. This is a very motivated workforce that are really needing these opportunities. And so to then finally get that opportunity and then to have those taken away, [00:32:00] that creates hopelessness, right? And then that creates, I'm not good enough. And that shame creeps in and it can get pretty dark pretty quick. So we're also just telling employers, we need to really know if there are certain charges that you're not gonna hire ahead of time or you're making a decision to do something different here. This may have been how you've done business, but now you're saying, we need workforce and we're willing to... People with lived experience, they're making your workforce more diverse in terms of their experience, in terms of their backgrounds, they're enriching your corporate culture. And so really truly give them that opportunity. And if you do give that opportunity to them, they should be treated just like everybody else. And it's amazing to have a company in our community like Union Pacific, who's been so thoughtful about this and is also teaching other companies how they [00:33:00] went about it. They've been very transparent. Here's how we've done it. Here's from a system and HR standpoint, things that we've done. And so it gives us a lot of hope when we can have a company saying I don't know, there's too much risk. You can point to other companies now and say, this can be done. There's other companies that are large that are saying this is good for business. We need people to do these jobs. We're improving public safety in our communities. Tonya talked about being a good citizen in your community that you work and live. And so it's really trying to do that, be stigmatized and say, hey, you don't have to do it alone. There's organizations like RISE. They're gonna come alongside you and make sure that individual is successful and it's gonna make your business better. It's an everybody wins type of situation. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah there are some realities. One, the job market [00:34:00] right now is really tough. Technology is changing faster than, it's probably six new things have happened since we've been on this podcast, right? The fact that we need to have critical thinkers who are agile learners, who bring resourcefulness, self-efficacy like grit and hustle to a role. There's not a company on the planet that doesn't benefit from having someone with some of those skills and abilities in their organization, right? Now, the challenge is they just have to then create an organization in which those people can do, be their best selves and bring those things, right? And that's really just in creating an inclusive culture across the board, right? 

Tonya Eggspuehler: What's good through the hiring process. It does, it absolutely does. It starts with the hiring process.

Tonya Eggspuehler: Yeah, the Second Chance Business Coalition, those with criminal records, they say 50% don't make it [00:35:00] to the second interview if that's discovered. So it is a barrier to entry. And when I say no blanket background policies, what I mean is we created a panel. There's three individuals that if something does flag, like your individual, Jeremy at Subaru, that panel talks with that employee, talks with that individual. They wouldn't be an employee for us yet because you have to complete that pre-hire. 

Natasha Nuytten: Sure. 

Tonya Eggspuehler: But they talk to them, they ask the questions, understand the context and the circumstances around why they were incarcerated. So that's the important part when the blanket. Jeremy just highlighted that for one of their individuals and that inclusivity starts in the hiring process, not just once hired. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah, for instance, I think it's absolutely bananas that you can't have a nail salon, right? [00:36:00] In some states, you can't have a nail salon or you can't have, if you have certain things on your record. Okay, no, understandably, like if there's some things on your record, maybe you can't have a daycare, right? But there are so many types of work. Jeremy, I think you said something like 800 something, right? 

Jeremy Bowman: Yeah, there's a lot of industries and I hope Subaru's not a sponsor. I love Subaru. I know, great. Everybody loves Subaru. We're not putting the Subaru on blast here. And that was just an example because there's so many, but we do a lot of policy work at Rise as well. And so one of the things that we passed last year was to increase occupational licensing opportunities for people with felony backgrounds. Historically, you talk about nail salons, there's a lot of people who their job in prison is they cut hair. There's incredible barbers and they do it for years. And historically, when you get out in a lot of communities and states, [00:37:00] you can't get a license to be a barber and that's your trade. It's certainly, we don't have an excess of people who do hair, we need more. And so we work on trying to remove some of those barriers to occupational licensing and certifications. And you think about healthcare, you think about a pandemic, you think about how in Nebraska, we have 5,600 nursing shortage, which is common kind of nationally. And we have people who are CNAs in facilities and they can't get healthcare jobs. And so these are barriers that kind of on a system and policy level, we're really working hard to change. We have really low unemployment in Nebraska. And so we have 60,000 open jobs on the Eastern part of our state. 2,500 people come out of our prison system in Nebraska every year. It's not gonna solve that [00:38:00] whole workforce shortage, but it can be a part of it. And it can be a part of a broader strategy for states that need workforce. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah, absolutely. 

Tonya Eggspuehler: Yeah, in April, 2023, going on the unemployment rate, we hit a 50 year, 54 year low at a 3.4% nationally unemployment rate. We were in some locations, some of our hiring locations were one and a half, 1.6% unemployment rate. Oh my gosh. Which on paper sounds great. Yeah. Correct. But it makes it really hard to find. Plus you're a company that needs to hire. Yeah, 

Jeremy Bowman: exactly. If you're unemployed and underemployed, because of your background, because of living your life based on your worst moment, your worst day of your life, those things can't be mutually exclusive, right? We can't have people sitting out of the [00:39:00] workforce that have paid their time, paid their debt, and are ready to reenter and saying, we're not gonna give you those opportunities. We have to be able to include that population in the workforce for them, for us, for the community at large. 

Natasha Nuytten: So there are definitely on the front end, to your point, Tonya, it starts with hiring, right? There are definitely some considerations and policies that need to be adjusted there. And the things that we're looking for, removing some barriers and requirements, which is something that truth be told, the talent acquisition space is making adjustments there anyway, right? They're moving more towards skills-based hiring, removing some educational requirements because it is so hard to find talent. And we're finding that some of these things that we've said are important, really, they aren't the critical factors for how someone can perform. So we know that there's that. I am curious if there are, from a [00:40:00] company culture perspective, once someone gets into the organization, I'd love to hear Tonya specifically, maybe at Union Pacific, but Jeremy, from you too, are there certain types of things such as, employee development, or we have a policy, are there certain types of policies or procedures that can then help once someone is hired to be able to, that's really an inclusive environment for everyone that helps everyone, but where we see that OXO situation, but where we see it having an outsized impact, perhaps on folks who might be coming in from post-incarceration. 

Tonya Eggspuehler: Yeah, so great question, because what we did for those who would be involved in the hiring, we did provide sensitivity training first and foremost. And then from there, we do [00:41:00] diversity and inclusion listening sessions. And we do anywhere from three to six per year, and it's company-wide, led by leaders of our organizations on a topic, and we actually did one focused on second chance, to really go across our entire company to say what it isn't, the facts and myths, to help get that message out. But then flipping to the new employee themselves or the justice-impacted individual, we have continuing and ongoing development available, not only internal classes, if they're a craft professional, which they belong to a union, we have.

Tonya Eggspuehler: skill-based training. If someone starts out as a track laborer and they don't have welding experience, we have welding classes available to them. We also have a really [00:42:00] amazing program with a local university, University of Nebraska-Omaha. And we've partnered with them that we offer free college courses to all of our employees. It can be just a skill. I want to learn English better. To read and write English, they can take an English course, or they can be trying to obtain their associate's degree, and that's through Metro and UNO. Or they can get their bachelor's degree, their master's. So we have many different avenues when they come in to continue to develop their skills. That's great. 

Natasha Nuytten: I love that. Yes. Jeremy, have there been any, anything at any of your, with any of your other partnerships where you've seen this is a really interesting or promising, perhaps, kind of policy or opportunity? 

Jeremy Bowman: Yeah, I think one really cool thing [00:43:00] we do is actually with Union Pacific, for a lot of their hiring managers around the country, we do a re-entry simulation for workforce development organizations and local businesses and companies who are wanting to do second chance hiring to just really have a better sense of what are the barriers people are facing. When somebody comes into my office and has that on their resume, what kinds of challenges are in their life? What kinds of things are going to be on their heart that they're struggling with or just wanting to better understand? You get a profile and we essentially have people go through a month of re-entry where you have to navigate the community. We have 15 tables of an employer and the court and the pawn shop and all these community services that people are trying to access to get [00:44:00] through each week. You do a month and inevitably, by the end of it, 40% of the people are sitting either in the local jail or they're homeless. Some do okay and are able to get up on their feet. When you challenge people's privilege and it's this exercise where obviously it's not a real situation but you're walking around in the shoes and saying, wow, this must be really hard. I felt like I never had a shot. I felt like the decks were stacked against me. I didn't know people had to pay parole fees or pay for their ankle monitor or check in at parole when they're supposed to be at work. That doesn't seem like that's an easy thing to do. I don't have transportation. All of those things, back to the beginning, I think create a more empathetic and [00:45:00] humane workforce for people who are going to welcome system-impacted people into their organization. The things that work are really not limiting what opportunities they can have within the organization to learn and grow just like everybody else. That's the key. Instead of saying, hey, we're going to exclude you because we're scared or because of X, Y, or Z, we all need to become better leaders and be professionally developed. When you're in an organization that values that type of professional development and you have folks that maybe haven't had access to it, they really engage with it. We have a staff where we have 60, 65% of our staff are formerly incarcerated. A lot of people in our organization across leadership, across all parts of RISE, they've been there. They've navigated their own reentry, their own recovery, [00:46:00] and they inform all the programs and services we create and how we go about the work. This year, I launched a 12-week internal leadership program to develop our leaders internally and said, hey, we want you to go on a journey where maybe you haven't had the opportunity to think about what your values are, what your personal mission statement is, thinking about a personal board of directors and how you deal with costs. All these things are going to make them better leaders. Hopefully, it's a retention mechanism as well, but I don't think you need to create something unique or different for them. You just need to give them an opportunity to participate in all the great things that your organization's already doing. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah, I love that. I think about Larry Miller, who fairly famously, Rhea was the chairman of the Jordan brand for Nike. He [00:47:00] achieved that before anybody knew that he had actually been imprisoned. He had access to those same opportunities but didn't deal with the stigma of, oh we got to be careful with you or A, B, or C, whatever the situation might be. I think about, we go back to some of those additional or value-add traits and characteristics that someone might have around hustle or grit or resourcefulness and really driving forward and being so passionate, to your point, Jeremy, about I have this opportunity. I will go through a wall, to use your words. I will go through a wall to keep this opportunity. So there are these very, when you're given the same access and opportunity without the little question, even the little bit of gray spot, it certainly makes a difference to people's experience to be certain. So I'm [00:48:00] curious, when we think about just leadership and the organization, Tanya, you said, it's specifically at the beginning when you all undertook this endeavor in 2021, your CHRO and CEO were fully on board. I'm curious if you could talk a little bit, and this doesn't have to be specific to UP, but I'm just curious about the role that leadership plays in the success of creating that inclusive environment, whether it's for folks who are coming out of a reentry situation or just in general, having a more inclusive environment. And then talking a little bit about how you all worked through accountability with leadership to these new initiatives and this new sort of value that you all were trying to embrace. 

Tonya Eggspuehler: Yeah. So the importance of getting leadership on board is because you need that foundation set. It needs to be a business imperative. It needs to be part of their vision, their [00:49:00] strategy to meet whatever business goals we have. It's a way of reaching the goals for the business. And they help pave that way for you because they understand, they've built their knowledge about this. They see how it can be successful, how it can help our business move forward, how it can support the communities in which we live and work. And great leaders naturally get others to follow them. And that's how it happens. And if you start at the top, they're at that position, they're a leader in the company for a reason because people follow them. And it makes your role as a recruiter leading talent acquisition that much easier to move this forward within the business. So that's really why. But with [00:50:00] anything, it's using the data. It's using the data. Second Chance Business Coalition is national and they supported us through the beginning phases of this. And that's critical because they have the data, they have the knowledge. Because we're in 23 states west of the Mississippi, so broad reach. We can't just rely on Jeremy, which I know they serve much larger than just Nebraska. But we needed those partnerships and that data and information more at the national level to really show the value in a second chance hiring program. 

Natasha Nuytten: Absolutely. I love, love, love what you said around this being aligned to business. This is part of the business strategy to align with outcomes, right? Like having more innovative teams, being more relevant [00:51:00] in your industry, having the best talent available to you aligned with your organization. Those are real objectives that can be super impactful in an organization. And so to be able to take something like this and draw the direct dot between, okay, here's the goal, here's how we're going to achieve it, and then here's the outcome, is super important for A, it's business. We have an imperative it's an imperative that we deliver for our stakeholders, whether that be your community or shareholders or employees, right? But to be able to make those direct correlations I think is really critical and important. And I think there is the, on the anecdotal side, it's often great to be able to tell a story too of here's this human being and how [00:52:00] they impacted our organization, right? How they made a difference. I think 

Jeremy Bowman: people, yeah, people want to work at organizations that stand for something, right? Yes, it's good for business and you have to have the business case for it, but particularly younger people want to be in places where their values align with their employer, where an employer has a social conscience about the world and how they're helping their community. So I think it's good from a business standpoint also from, culture and values and really what you care about, and that says a lot about a company as well. 

Natasha Nuytten: Absolutely. Tonya, I'd love to ask you how you are thinking about making sure that efforts at diversity, towards diversity and inclusion, really go beyond representative and really include meaningful engagement towards retaining [00:53:00] diverse talent. Are there some ways that you all think about that type of thing at Union Pacific? 

Tonya Eggspuehler: Yeah, so again, I always talk about things and I have now. It's from hire through their employment and, what we focus on is every single employee can bring their whole self to work and that's very different for everyone and, it really starts with our resource groups and, you don't have to identify with that resource group. We look at it as learning and development, so I could go to our black employee network and become a member that expands my network. There's learning and development and celebrations such as Juneteenth that I can become knowledgeable about. I can celebrate. I can understand. That's really [00:54:00] what it's about is creating that culture that's about learning and development so we all can feel inclusion. It's not that we're celebrating, Juneteenth since I used that before to exclude others. People just need to understand what it's about and that's why we use education, so much through the process and Jeremy mentioned on the simulation that we did, that was the whole point. We've never walked in each other's shoes. We don't know what it's like through life. We're identifying one way or, another but what that helps us do when you learn and educate yourself just like that simulation, you walk, I'm doing quotes if people are only on voice, but is you get to walk for a little bit [00:55:00] in somebody else's shoes and just learning that, Natasha, he didn't give himself and Rai enough credit. We had people in tears. We had people that followed up with me afterward that said that was the most impactful training that they've ever done because we don't know and when you don't know, you don't have as much respect potentially for that other person and the more, that's why I opened up with empathy and I'm going to say empathy here. The more empathy we have for each other creates inclusion, I firmly believe. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah, I love that and I'm also not surprised that Jeremy hasn't taken all the credit for his team, not for his team, he's really good about that, but for his leadership. You do have an amazing team, but they also have an incredible leader and that matters. So I just have one more question for each of you and then a collective [00:56:00] question. I want to respect your time here. I'd love to ask you both and you can each answer from your perspective. Maybe looking ahead, what are your goals for hiring partnerships for the next few years? And then Tonya would ask you to follow with the same question. What are your goals at Union Pacific regarding diversity inclusion over the next couple of years? I'd love you to each kind of speak to that a little bit. 

Jeremy Bowman: We have seen a real expansion of the types of industries that will do second chance hiring, even within the last five years. There's companies that I've been calling for 10 years that wouldn't hire our graduates that are now saying we need workforce and I think we're willing to come to the table and learn more. I would say our starting hourly wage pre-pandemic was probably 14 an hour, which is not a livable wage. It's a little north of 18 an hour [00:57:00] now. That really, you start to be able to see a pathway to a career and sustainable employment and all the things we all want. For us, it's really looking at what are the high skill, high wage, high need job opportunities and how do we create pipelines that are more welcoming of second chance hiring. We're doing some work in the state around apprenticeships and getting people into some skilled labor opportunities where there's endless need for HVAC and electrical and plumbing and construction, but we also need to find pathways into knowledge jobs. That's been trickier, really to find ways to upskill people quickly enough to keep up as you're talking about how things are changing. [00:58:00] Not everybody is in the same position where warehouse logistic work or even customer service jobs are really meeting what their skill set is. We're trying to intentionally figure out what are some of those pathways and how do we really make sure we're creating the right education tools for folks and then truly partnering with companies similarly to how Union Pacific has done this in other industries. We can point and say, you don't think you can figure out your compliance and all the things you did? Guess what? The railroad did. Guess what? You can figure this out. Then along those lines, we need to continue working on changing policy around certifications and licensing. We are starting to make some inroads into healthcare, but that's going to be a really heavy lift. But we're determined to find ways to really get folks into competitive wage growth [00:59:00] opportunities. We have a lot of work in front of us, but I'm very convicted that we're going to get there. 

Natasha Nuytten: Love that. 

Tonya Eggspuehler: Yeah. So Jeremy mentioned, I have to do a plug, right? The average wage you said is 18 an hour, Jeremy? Our train crew positions, we currently list at 80,000 

Natasha Nuytten: right 

Tonya Eggspuehler: now within their first year. And amazing benefits. We talked about the skills, all of that. I'm a recruiter at heart, right? I have to get that plug in, but that's the difference. That's what's going to make the difference for justice impacted individuals. So you also asked, when it comes to diversity and inclusion, so internally, how we look at this is we do an engagement survey annually of all 30,000 approximately [01:00:00] employees, and we get stellar participation in that. We have an inclusion index in there, and that's how we measure, regardless of race, gender, ethnicity, how is our inclusion here at Union Pacific, and what is that rate? And our goal is to continue to improve that inclusion index, because like I said earlier, we want everyone to be able to bring their whole selves to work here at Union Pacific and feel included. When it comes to hiring, we talk about the funnel, and how do we get the most qualified individuals at the top of our funnel? And that means applying for our positions and a diverse set of, it's not just race, it's not just gender, but experiences too. Because just like I mentioned, the more diverse [01:01:00] experiences I have around my leadership team, the better outcomes we're going to have, and that's what we talk about. So our goal is to have a strong, qualified funnel at the very top, and that's what's going to continue us bringing on the best talent, the most diverse talent, and the most qualified. I believe firmly in that. 

Jeremy Bowman: I love it. $80,000 a year in hiring bonuses, these are outliers right now. It's incredible, right? Somebody, one of our grads said, hey, I got this hiring bonus at Union Pacific, and there's a small moment where I was ready to get an application from Tanya. I was like, oh my gosh. But that 

Tonya Eggspuehler: can't be the- I probably would have denied. No, just kidding. Yeah. But that 

Jeremy Bowman: can't be- No, yeah. Just can't rise. This can't be the outlier. I think for a lot of companies, this needs to be the norm, because there's [01:02:00] so many people who are able to have starting wage opportunities similar to that, and we just need more access for system impact people to get into those jobs, and they're going to crush it when they do. 

Natasha Nuytten: That's it. That's it. So thank you both. And that's my last question, Jeremy, is leading into that, is how can people support what you're doing at Rise? Thanks, Tanya. How can people partner with you, with Union Pacific, and be helpful to the work that you are both trying to do in your respective areas? 

Jeremy Bowman: Yeah. I always tell people that this might be an area you don't have a lot of familiarity. When I started volunteering, I've had some family members incarcerated, but I didn't have a lot of knowledge. So if you're going to take a step, educate yourself, learn about the issues in your state legislature that impact system-impacted people, use humanizing language. That is something we all can do. That's very simple.

Jeremy Bowman: Talk about people who are, talk about people. [01:03:00] People first language, justice involved, system impacted. To learn about RISE, www.cesrise.org, S-E-E-U-S-R-I-S-E.org. Second stat, we're a nonprofit. We are always looking for philanthropy. We're also always looking for volunteers. I think one thing that makes us unique is we've brought over 1,600 people in our communities in Nebraska into Nebraska prisons. And that proximity for resume review and doing mock interviewing, reviewing business plans, we do a Shark Tank style pitch competition, all these things create connection where you get to know system impacted people and understand how much you have in common, but also experience in their lives that don't condone some of the behavior, but certainly gives you more of a perspective around childhood trauma and poverty and some of the barriers [01:04:00] that people in our communities face. There's opportunities to volunteer from wherever in the country you are. We have online volunteer opportunities on our website too, where you can interact with folks in our program and provide feedback for them. So yeah, we'd love to get you involved in RISE, but also just to educate yourself about the criminal legal system, how it impacts our communities, how it impacts wherever you live, it's an issue. And think about your language because that's a simple thing we all can do to correct others in the moment and say, hey, let's just change the wording around some of these things that carry a lot of stigma. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah, that's great. There's that empathy from y'all bubbling up again. Tonya, how about you? 

Tonya Eggspuehler: I will say I, and there's great members of my team too, would be happy to support any individual or a company that are [01:05:00] looking to establish a second chance program. We've already met with several, but that's how we make change. That's how we move forward. So I'm the only Tonya Expeller because that's a very unique name. So I'm on LinkedIn. You can look me up, connect with me, send me a message, and we will set up time myself and members of my team to help you. And I just would say it takes time and patience because as I mentioned, walk before you run. And then Union Pacific is on all social platforms. So follow us and our website's up.com. And that can also then send you to our social platforms as well. 

Natasha Nuytten: Awesome. 

Tonya Eggspuehler: Well- 

Jeremy Bowman: Natasha, thank you for having this conversation and [01:06:00] showing some of the other layers of DEI and the importance of including reentry and system-impacted people in that conversation. So we're grateful to you and your heart and your personal familial experience with this. And giving us a platform to talk about this with you today. 

Natasha Nuytten: That's you. Thank you. Thank you, Jeremy. I'm just a small little piece of the thing, but to your point, it's people, right? We're talking about people. How do people help people? So I'm grateful for the opportunity. I'm really grateful for your time. I know you both have very important things to be doing. So thank you for sharing. We will, this community will help. We'll do what we can. And if I can be of any additional assistance, you know I'm here for it. So I appreciate you both. And thank you all for listening. Let us know what you thought. Help out, reach out. I'm happy to make connections as well if I can. So [01:07:00] thank you very much. See you next time. Thank you. So it's not the first time, nor will it be the last time that you hear me say that diversity is about so much more than just racial or ethnic diversity. This conversation was meaningful and insightful. I hope you learned as much as I did. And as we talk about leading with empathy and creating an environment for all humans to grow and respecting the experience of others, this is just an incredible example. This is near and dear to my heart, as I've said, and I hope you were moved to learn more. And I am happy to connect you if you'd like. Please let us know what you thought in the notes below. Check out what Rise is doing. Connect with Tanya at Union Pacific if you wanna learn more. Their information is below in the show notes. Thank you for listening, and I will see you next time.