Lessons from a 30-Year HR Career | Angela Cheng-Cimini

Natasha Nuytten: Hello, everyone. Welcome to Human Side Up. I am Natasha Nuytten, and I am absolutely thrilled to be sharing today's conversation with you. I had the opportunity to speak with Angela Chang-Semini, who is Senior Vice President and Chief Human Resources Officer at Harvard Business Publishing, and we got to speak with her on her last day. She has opted to step away so that she could embrace life and do some amazing things with the family and friends that she loves. What a gift she gave us, showing up on her last day. Her perspective was incredible. Just really amazing to hear from her after the 30 years that she's given to human resources and in such organizations where they're known for the fact that their leadership is so incredible and their culture is so incredible. I know that you're going to enjoy this conversation. I loved it. She had me in tears before the camera even started rolling. Welcome to Angela Chang-Semini. Welcome to Human Side Up. I am Natasha Nuytten, CEO at DEI Network and Clara and super, super excited about today's conversation. I have the privilege of speaking with Angela Chang-Semini, who is the Senior Vice President of Chief Human Resources at Harvard Business Publishing. She brings with her 30 years of experience across multiple sectors and company life stages, even spearheading efforts to develop talent roadmaps that support the business strategy and really create deeply engaged and diverse workforces. In addition to that, she sits on the Alumni Board of Directors for Cornell University. She's a member of CNBC's Workforce Executive Council, which is a body of CHROs dedicated to advancing the practices of HR. She's a board director for the T. Howard Foundation, an organization dedicated to increasing diversity in the media industry. And on top of all that, serves as an advocate for the AAPI community and for several nonprofits. She's a mom. She's a wife. She's a friend. She's an amazing partner. She's doing all the things. So excited to have you here today, Angela. Thank you so much for making time for us, especially on such a momentous day. I'm excited to have you here. How are you today? 

Angela Cheng-Cimini: Thank you so much, Natasha. Yeah, no, it's good. The decision to step down right now after a 30 plus year career feels right. And it's also reversible. So I take great comfort in knowing that if this is just a blip in the road, it's not a track that I can't get back on. But I feel at age 54 that I owe it to myself to go explore what else I can be capable of. That's amazing. 

Natasha Nuytten: And the thing is, I think that it is undoable, right? Like we get caught up in that in business all the time. Like we feel like something's a one way door and it's not. So we can just take a breath, walk through. And if we change our minds, we can come back and try different things. So yeah, that's a great perspective. So before we dive into the leadership side of things, I'm curious if we ask folks on this podcast if there are maybe one or two words about you that you would use to describe yourself that we might not find on your resume or your CV. And maybe if you could tell us a little bit about how you came to own them for yourself. I'd be curious if you'd be willing to share something like that. 

Angela Cheng-Cimini: So last night, the leadership team took me out to dinner as a farewell, just a really great time and getting a little bit naughty, after hours, right? The executive team has to let our hair down. And I was saying to them that I'm probably one of the most irreverent HR people they will ever meet. And they're like, that's why we love you. And I think, HR sometimes is seen as the police, right? We're all buttoned up. We're about policy procedure. And I think we have to have really good humor to do this work really well. Because if you take the kind of care, to take, to spend the kind of energy to really lean in to those moments when you're talking with an employee or a manager or someone who's got a challenge or just wants a sounding board, right? You have to be fully present. And that means the other times you can't take everything so seriously. And I think that I try not to take everything so seriously. Very few of the decisions I make at work are irreversible. And I don't need a 50 page and play handbook to know what, to know how to do what's right and to know how to use common sense in making decisions. And so I think in that way, I show up a little irreverent and I appreciate a little bit of dark humor. I appreciate a little bit of let's call it PG 13 humor. I, because I want to be relatable. I don't want to be an HR person that people can't confide in, that they can't share their struggles with, because I need, I feel like we need to be there when employees are at their very best, but also when they're at their very lowest. And so I think a little bit of humor, and a little bit of levity goes a long way

Natasha Nuytten: Absolutely love that. That's amazing. And you're right. It is hard work. Holding space for people is hard work. And if you're doing it well, and you've been doing it like you have for 30 years, then that's a long time. Like you need to be able to, you need to be able to create space for yourself in that. Yeah, that's awesome. And I recall you saying a few times that, I think you're unusual in that you started in HR. There are not a lot of people in this space you have. And I'm curious, I believe that your dad found the space to explore, which I think is really cool. 

Angela Cheng-Cimini: Yeah. 

Natasha Nuytten: I'm curious if there's anything in thinking about how you have learned to hold spaces or anything that learned in that regard early on that has carried through with you all these years later, that you still go, Oh yeah, I learned that pretty early. I had to refine it maybe, but is there anything that comes along with that? Oh yeah. There were so many mistakes. 

Angela Cheng-Cimini: So many mistakes. I think I started out my career with a definite sense of, okay, I'm learning on the job, but then I got to okay, I need to have the answers. And I didn't have the lived experience. I didn't have the wisdom to have all the answers. And so it came across probably as, no, it came across as arrogance. It came across as conceit, which does not play well when you're trying to be confident or a counsel to other people. And so I learned pretty quickly okay, Angela, you don't have to be the smartest person in the room. In fact, you shouldn't be the most talkative person in the room. You really should be seeking to understand. And that applies to whether or not you're trying to understand the business challenge. You're trying to understand someone's personal struggle. You're just trying to understand where your own head is at any given moment. How am I showing up right now? Whether that's in a conversation with just one person or I'm speaking to a staff of hundreds. And so I learned really quickly, right? That there is a lot of humility in this role that then can give you credibility to go do the big, powerful, impactful things when your voice really does matter, when you do need to be able to stand up and you need to be able to command the room or the table. And so you have to use that power very discriminately. And that's a maturity that requires a lot of reflection. It probably requires some aging, right? It's not the gravitas you're going to find in a 28-year-old. Which is not to say it can't be done, but it just means a lot of retrospection, a lot of counsel-taking. To do this work well is not to do it on your own. 

Natasha Nuytten: Oh, man. I'm going to record. I'm going to get this out. I usually have my little notebook. 

Angela Cheng-Cimini: I won't be able to say that again. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah, we'll send it to you for sure. That's just, it's so true. And there is, this word has kept coming up for me, and maybe that's because of my age. I'm going to be 49 in a couple of months. Wisdom, like it just keeps popping up in these conversations I'm having with women, especially, who are at a similar stage in their career who are like, man, I had to earn that. You just don't know that coming out of the gate. Or maybe you have some instincts, right? But your instincts can be a great guide, but they also have to be informed. And that comes with, to your point, time and age and experience. So yeah, that's really meaningful to me. And it's a lesson that every once in a while, I think I've done really well. And then I get slapped in the face with it again. Oh, you still have some growing to do. You're still becoming, the universe reminds us. Yes, yeah, we cannot escape. So along those lines, I'm curious, you've spent a lot of time both in your career and in your personal life where you volunteer and support and advocate, which you do a bunch of both, around mentorship. And that's been something that I've seen you write about, and I've heard you speak about, with regard to how important it was in your world, for you as you were growing and developing. And I'm curious if you could give us a little bit of insight around the role that it played for you, and then how that translated into how you have now been leading in this back half of your career. 

Angela Cheng-Cimini: So when my first job out of school was with Frito-Lay, and the Vice President of Human Resources was a gentleman by the name of Jim Waller. And so he was my boss's boss. Trying to think, might have been one, there might be one more layer in there. But suffice to say, he took me under his wing. And he was a fantastic role model. He also taught me a little bit of reverence, like every once in a while, he would just give me a peek of what he was like, before, and then he would stop just like he wouldn't give me the goods. But there was enough to show that there was more to him to be offered, that I'm sure he would feed out to the organization as appropriate, right? There were dimensions and nuances to him. He wasn't just the Vice President of Human Resources. But I also learned the power of sponsorship and mentorship. And it wasn't until much, much later in life, when I realized that I had gone through my entire career up until that point, not having seen any Asian leaders. And then I just, I can't think of any, nevermind female Asian leaders. So I wrote a post on LinkedIn about how I'm the 1%. And it wasn't a reference to socioeconomic status, it was to the fact that 1% of all C-suite leaders are female Asians. Although the Times CEO of the year is an Asian woman, she's actually Taiwanese, which is what I am. But it's decades in the making for us to get to a space where we can, where we actually have examples of that. And so people have reached out for me, they find me on LinkedIn, they hear me on a podcast, and I always encourage people to reach out to me. I'm the only Angela Chang Seminary on LinkedIn, so I'm super easy to find. And if people want 15 minutes just to talk with me, I will try and find the time for that. Because I know that had that been available to me, that would have done wonders for my confidence. I think it could have accelerated my learning. It would have cured me of some self-doubt, it probably would have given me some real practical advice, and would have also just made me feel not so alone. And I think particularly right now, at this moment in the world, we can't have too many connections. We can't have too many friends, too many allies. And it's gotten so much harder because we are all so remote and virtual. On the other hand, Natasha, 15 years ago, there's no way we would have ever found each other. 

Angela Cheng-Cimini: So there is so much about technology, and there is so much about living in the digital age that is beautiful. But it does just change how we interact with each other. And so I try to make real those moments when people can come touch to touch. That's such a 

Natasha Nuytten: gift, right? Because time is so precious. And it's the one thing you're not ever getting more of, to the point of you making this choice to rewire, right? To try something else. That's so important. So the fact that you're willing to give that is, is amazing. And I think, to the point of that sort of sponsorship and mentorship thing my partners and I, we started our company because all of us had an opportunity or an experience where someone saw something in us, or made a choice to invest in us and give us an opportunity that we maybe didn't earn on paper. But there was a thing there, that they were like, if I can nurture that and draw that out. And we're like, we have to do that for more people, because we all have a thing. We all have something unique about who we are, that brings value to a role and makes it different or better in some way. And I don't know, my age, I grew up in basketball, it was all about the Bulls. They were like on their tear, and what was so interesting about that team was like, not everybody is a Michael Jordan. Some people are Pippins, and some people are Dennis Rodman's. And there's you play, or maybe you're Steve Cart, right? You're the person who like, steps in and does the thing and other people are better because you're there. Yes. And you can't know that unless someone takes a little bit of time to help you either see what the thing is, or to draw it out of you. So I really appreciate that perspective. That's 

Angela Cheng-Cimini: That's so often it's not about competence. It's about opportunity. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yes. 

Angela Cheng-Cimini: For every single entrant into Harvard, they deny 97. I'm making up the statistics, whatever. Sure. But they were not any less worthy. They just, they were missing something. They didn't go to the right prep school. They don't play polo. They don't, I'm being a little stereotypical. But there are so many really gifted people who have something to offer, but for the fact that they didn't get the right invite. 

Natasha Nuytten: And there's something there. Yeah. Yeah. So one of the things in this, we talk about, there's that skill and ability, but especially in the way that the time is changing, right? Critical thinking, learning agility, those are becoming more and more important when we think about bringing talent into organizations, because the world's changing so fast. Like we don't even know what skills people are going to need five years from now, because we don't know what AI is going to be doing. So in thinking about it, I've got three questions here. This is an apology, my brain starts to divvy these things up. So I've got a question for you, around how you think critical thinking and learning agility might begin to play more critical roles in how we hire and bring talent into organizations. And then I want to talk a little bit about how those tie to AI, right? Because I've heard, and I've heard you talk a little bit about that. So that's where my brain is going. So can we start with those concepts around critical thinking and learning agility and then go from there? 

Angela Cheng-Cimini: Yeah, I think it's such a perfect question for this moment, which is, I think in some ways, we are losing our ability to think critically. So I recently had the privilege of sharing space with Professor Amy Edmondson, at Harvard Business School, who's responsible for coining the phrase psychological safety. And in the green room, we were talking about what her teaching experience has been like since the advent of consumer grade AI. And she was saying that some of the students are getting lazy, and they're throwing it into chat GBT. And they're forgetting the reason they applied to HBS in the first place was to learn, and to learn how to learn, and to learn how to think critically, and assess a situation and be able to play out the different scenarios, and then use the limited data to then make the best informed decision that they possibly can, right? That's what critical thinking is, right? It's processing, it's a methodology, that's something that can be scalable, because hopefully, it continues to give you repeatedly good solutions. And some students are just getting lazy. And right now, where the answer to just about anything is at our fingertips, right? We don't have to hold in our brains so much information, because I don't need to know your phone number, because you're on speed dial. God forbid, I need to get in touch with you, and I don't have my phone. I am completely out of luck, right? And that's not an example of critical thinking so much as it is just we've all gotten a little lazy, right? We used to store 20 phone numbers in our heads, because we were required to do that. And so if you don't use the muscle, then you lose the learning agility, which means we just have to be so much more intentional about that. And the challenge that I often think HR and L&D and OG professionals find is that we don't have space to do that, right? And so we try to do learning in the flow, learning on the job in the moment. And it's really difficult, because we know that multitasking isn't really a thing, right? It's just your ability to move from one thing to the next, you're not actually doing them all at the same time. So we have to, I think, in organizations, we have to find ways to do less with less, which is work on fewer things, because we do have less time, we have less energy, we have less bandwidth to do the things that are really impactful. And that will help you create space to just think, and to maybe learn, to teach, to spend time with others. So it is more important now than ever, because you have to really, when you're vetting a candidate, you have to test for the ways in which they are willing to learn, willing to ask intellectually curious questions. Because otherwise, they'll just Google it, or they'll chat GPT hit, right? And so you really need to go a lot deeper than I think we used to. And AI, like any other tool can be really helpful. And like just the calculator was, but it shouldn't be our go to I think. And then we're still learning how to use that tool most effectively. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah. I love the phrase that you just used, doing less with less, right? Because usually we're hearing things like we're being asked to do more with less. Yes. And that is, there is a reality that's true. We have more responsibilities. But I think to your point around the focus, to actually get a thing done, and to do it means doing less, it means narrowing the things that you're letting in and that ability. I do think that we're changing our brains in the way that we were not as good at filtering out, we are more easily distracted. Yeah, we do let all that stuff in, and we have to be a little more thoughtful about narrowing the field of focus. And I think, to your point, being able to learn differently, I think, I would say also ties to like, what do I know from this experience that I can bring into the moment? And what am I learning in the moment that I can then take forward with me rather than having those things feel so transactional that learning agility is becoming more important, because, to your point, we're still learning AI. And we can't let it go, we have to learn from our mistakes, right? We have to learn from the things that we didn't do with other social tools. And so we have to be able to say, OK, AI is probably not taking my job, but someone who knows how to use AI is going to be coming after me. So I have to get smart about that. So I think that's really thoughtful, that less, doing less with less. So on that note, and this is a bit adjacent to, I'd be curious if you could, as I know, you all have been thinking, because HBR is, HBP, I should say, all of it, is always very forward-thinking. So as you've been thinking over the last couple years as a leadership group, and you in particular, in HR, what role do you see AI playing in that part of the business, in the human resources part of the business? Can you talk a little bit about that? AMT 

Angela Cheng-Cimini: There's already so many applications. So it can take away a lot of the administrative tasks, right? So for example, if people needed to find information about their benefits plan, as opposed to talking to someone on my team, there's an AI bot that will just scour the plan summary document and what have you and then feed the information. We can offload the stuff that doesn't require someone to take the time to do that. But there's a lot more self-service. There's then the application of, using it to vet, all the applications when candidates apply for a job because you tell them what keywords and whatnot. And I will admit that I have been reluctant to adopt the technology in that use case. So fortunately, HPP doesn't get overwhelmed with thousands and thousands of applicants in the way of Google. So the team can still, I will say, manually review the applications that we receive. We apply filters. So if we're looking for someone local, we'll only talk to people in Massachusetts. And so then we have several hundred instead of many hundred. But until I'm really comfortable that the bias in the system is no worse than at least that of a human, I'm not quite ready. I want to see that technology continues to evolve and mature. And there are plenty of other organizations who are happy to field test that technology. So I'm going to let them run ahead. And then when the degree of confidence has risen to a point where I think it's appropriate, then I will choose to adopt and apply. I just think there's too much to be lost if you overlook a single really good candidate. So in that regard, I'm going old school. But there's that application. Then, of course, the ability to sift through lots and lots of data. So one of the things I talk about with hyper-personalization is that Netflix knows what kinds of movies I like to watch based on what I watched previously. Amazon knows that I'm running out of my favorite shampoo, and so it's already delivering the next bottle. Spotify will tell me these are artists I should explore. Similarly, organizations sit on lots of information about their employees. When's the last time Angela got a raise? When's the last time she got a promotion? She just had a baby. Maybe she's interested in working in a different flexible work week. So that's all the information that we sit on. Oh, it looks like she's two years away from retirement. We should be thinking about her succession plan. And organizations just don't do enough with that. But now there are algorithms that can look at all that organization and can start to give you flags that say, ooh, maybe you should go check in with Natasha. You skip the last three Outlook meetings because AI knows that you canceled it on your calendar. So it can do a lot of that, and then it can help organizations craft a bespoke employee experience that gives Natasha what she needs, which is different from what Angela needs. And so that, for me, is the next avenue where I think AI can be really helpful. And HPP has only 600 employees, but imagine doing that for 60,000, and AI can absolutely help with that. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah. No, I love that. And being an AI company, I fully agree with you that having the technology built in such a way that it does mitigate that bias as much as possible and really embeds equity into the process so that everyone on both sides of that experience has a positive outcome, whether it's with the application or with the review of the application and applying that consistently. There is something really there. And that carries all the way through all of those technologies. Even in that hyper-personalization, looking at the options around, hey, maybe that person does want a flexible schedule, and maybe they want to double down. What are the options that we could give to that person? So I think there's some really good thoughtfulness there. And thinking about that sort of hyper-personalization, what are some practical ways, because obviously AI is still evolving and those algorithms are still happening, how can those organizations and leaders that are still old school, or maybe they're still in between adoption of technologies because they're just evolving, what are some ways that they can do that very practically in their organizations without necessarily leaning into using a technology that may or may not be ready for them just yet? 

Angela Cheng-Cimini: So the answer is a bit suboptimal, but it is the right one, which is to ask your people leaders to make sure that they're having the conversations with their teams. And the reason the answer is suboptimal is because our people leaders, particularly those in middle management, are increasingly being asked to do more and more, right? They're players and coaches. They have to play strategist, but also have to play executioner. And they're the ones that probably get the most neglected, right? Because they're in the center of everything, juggling all the balls, and no one's stopping to ask, hey, you need help with all those balls, right? We just give them more and more. And in some organizations, they're actually de-layering and removing middle managers, so there's even fewer of them. So that's an instance of doing more with less, right? That's not sustainable. But fundamentally, I think, and one of the reasons why I really love the HR work is that sometimes all the magic just happens in that one-on-one conversation. So you know what, Natasha, today, instead of talking about what you've been working on in the last two weeks, let's just take a pause. And I just want to ask you to reflect, how's your experience been? What are the things that I need to be doing differently for you so that this experience is meeting your needs? And let's just have an honest conversation about that. And in the course of that, especially if you've built up the trust and you have those conversations regularly, you'll learn things about that person that, over time, won't surprise you because they will have given you enough signals to say actually, I've been thinking about getting promoted, or actually, I'm getting a little bored with my work. And so when they quit a year later, you should have seen that coming because they told you that. But there's so much preemptive work that can happen when you just simply ask the question, how are you, and actually sincerely mean it. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah. And that ties to another thing I feel I've seen you speak out about. So I feel like I can confidently say you care about being consistent around identifying the values of the organization and then implementing that in policy, in expectation, so that everyone can work toward them in that same direction. Yeah. Am I over speaking? No. 

Angela Cheng-Cimini: I am super, super proud of the work that we did around HVP values. So when I joined, we had a set of them, but nobody could repeat them. They were in the performance management system, but that was really the only place that existed. They weren't anything that really we held people accountable to or that we reinforced in any way. So we undertook a process that was both grassroots and top-down, where we talked to employees, we formed a committee, and we had them identify both what were the values of the organization, but was also aspirational. What are the things that we would like to be that we're not currently manifesting? And then what was important from an executive perspective, because we wanted to make sure that the senior most leaders understood and really felt that they were right, so that they could role model them. And what we ended up with was three, do what's right, do what's hard, and do it with excellence. And that sequence is intentional. So we have it in spades, do what's right. HVP is a highly ethical and moral organization, and we have done it with excellence in spades as well, because we're Harvard. That's our homework, because we do things really well. What was aspirational for us was to do what's hard. The organization is exceedingly polite and nice, which is a wonderful place to be. I'd much rather be on that end of the spectrum than on the other end of the spectrum, right? But that means that we have a bit of a risk aversion. We have a reluctance to have difficult conversations. We don't give critical feedback when it would be really helpful to do so if you know that you're leading with good intent, so I'm trying to do the right thing, I'm trying to do this in service of something bigger than myself, and I'm trying to do it in the very best way that I can, then I am equipped to do things that are hard, which is to say, I saw that, and let me tell you how that landed for me. Can we talk about that? Can we do it differently? Or we need to make a decision as a business. It's going to feel really uncomfortable, but what are the change management practices we need to put in place so we can bring everyone along on that journey so they understand that while this is hard, it is the right thing to do? And so I know that we have been successful in the setting of those values because they are organically invoked all the time. Yes, they're in our performance management system, but they are part of our vernacular. We talk a lot about the examples that we see in the organization of people doing those things. And in fact, once a year, we give an award to a singular employee that's nominated by their peers that has the trifecta. And it is so powerful for people to have role models of people who do that and so I think every organization should think about their values, and they should think about them in a way that really does apply to the day-to-day because it greatly influences how people feel about their affiliation with the organization. They can make a choice whether or not it's a good place for them or not. And then when you actually hold people accountable to that, there's consistency in that people feel good about because then they know that there are consequences for the people who go rogue, and there's recognition for the people who do it really well. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah, that's awesome. And everyone wants to work in a place like that, which is great. Yeah. And it's really hard to do. So do you have experience that you're comfortable talking about where maybe the hard conversation around that psychological safety and those values was maybe not leadership to team, but maybe team to leadership or leadership to higher leadership? Can you share anything there? Because that's so hard to achieve sometimes. 

Angela Cheng-Cimini: It really is. And so in that same session where I was with Professor Amy Edmonds, we talked about why are we still talking about it? Why is it still a thing? Because it is really hard. And now there's a lot of noise about safe spaces where we're not supposed to do things that are triggering. So how do those two things exist in the same space? I have something difficult to say, but gosh, I have to be really careful about how that might impact you, how that might upset you. And so it is a really fine line. So I have definitely been in organizations where, particularly organizations in crisis. And so I have seen leaders revert to an echo chamber because that's where it's comfortable and that's where it feels safe, right? Because I'm not going to be challenged by the people that I'm surrounding myself with. And I, for me, am most in the flow of my work when I can speak truth to power. I feel that HR has the most strategic value when we can hold a mirror up to the organization and just check, hey, like this is what you're putting out into the universe. Is that what you intended? If so, spot on. Or if not, then how do we course correct that? How do we make that better or different? And when I lose the ability to do that, or when anybody loses the ability to speak frankly, you do start to see the energy shift and it always suffers for it. So I have been in those spaces where leaders find less value in the counsel that I am providing because I think it is hard to hear. It is challenging to their paradigms, but I am comfortable and confident in the fact that I am doing it from a space of good intent, that I'm doing it because I want to further the success of the organization. That is always the aim of any HR strategy that I design is it starts with what is the business need. It does not start with what HR needs or what Angela needs. And so because I firmly believe that I'm here to advance the good of the organization, when I say those things, it is only with the intention of making things better. Doesn't mean I'm always right. I totally get that. But I think it's important for all HR practitioners, for all talent leaders, for anybody who's in the business of developing other people to be able to speak freely. Yeah, 

Natasha Nuytten: I think there's a lot there. I'm like, oh, we could talk about that for three hours. And I do think part of it is, and this is speaking from my own experience, like sometimes it has to be earned, right? The opportunity to do that.

Angela Cheng-Cimini: Ooh, I'll challenge you on that, Natasha. I just recently had this conversation. Again, back to Amy Edmondson, we were talking about earned trust versus assumed trust. Trust literally means that I just go on blind faith. That's literally what it means. It means I don't have all the information. It means maybe I don't have the experience. But I trust you when you say, you're going to be she, I don't know, really, you're going to invest my million dollars safely, like insecurely okay. That's literally what trust means. It doesn't mean I've earned it. It means I think there's a little bit of confusion, which is, okay, you've earned my trust. But it doesn't mean over time, it means you have it. And then the moment it's broken, then we have to talk about that. So on day one, when I enter an organization, I'm operating from a field of, I trust you and you trust me because you brought me in to do a job. And as long as our objectives are aligned, you shouldn't have any reason to suspect or doubt. Until such time, I've done something that flies in the face of that. 

Angela Cheng-Cimini: Because we don't have time to build trust. Because some people are very suspicious. And for some people, that could take years. We don't have time for that. 

Natasha Nuytten: I think you're right about that. And I think when I use the word earned, maybe I'm reflecting here and maybe coming from the place where if there has been damage there, there are times when, and this is in personal relationships as well as business relationships, where I can choose to forgive, but like I'm a human being. It is hard to forget what has happened. And so I may be a little less inclined to say, or maybe I haven't seen, here's an example. I'm thinking of something that happened to me recently. I haven't seen, I'll back up. I'm a pretty open person. I can certainly get defensive. I certainly have my blind spots. We all do. And I think it can also be true that even when that's happening, I'm usually okay with someone saying, okay, you're doing the thing. So I, like acknowledging that in the moment, okay. It becomes really hard for me when I don't see the other person doing the same. And so I think when I was talking about that earned, I appreciate you calling me out on that because I was caught, I was speaking from an experience where it may have been broken in some way, shape, or form, or maybe it hasn't been broken yet. But I also feel like you have an expectation of me to be open and listening, but you're not actually being authentic about how you're coming at the thing. And so that earned piece is do I believe that you really are, to your point, I am coming at this from wanting to support the business. Do I believe that? Or do I actually think you're here for yourself? Yes. And, so it goes back to that. Speaking of HBR, you have the amazing Frances Fry in your HBS and the trust triangle that she and Anne put together. Yes. And the wobbles. Yes. The wobbles. Exactly. And I think it really comes down to whether we have all three legs of that stool on the ground to be able to do that. So yeah, I think you're right and I think you're right to push back on earning because I think sometimes you have to just give trust to be for people to be able to earn it. I think you're absolutely right about that. And I think then it comes down to those other pieces of the trust framework. So yeah, I think that's really great. Okay. So thinking about that, total thread, this is again, how my brain works, in that you were talking about, hey, I'm coming at this, especially from an HR perspective, I'm coming at this and thinking about it from the business, like what is good for the business? And I think that this is one area where HR hasn't been the best in being understanding. And sometimes it's because they haven't been included and sometimes it's because that hasn't been the focus on how HR, how is HR part of the business rather than being the order taker, right? And how do, and that's a two-way street. Like sometimes it's the leadership or the organization that treats HR that way. And other times it's maybe that's the only experience they've ever had. So they're not sure how to position themselves as part of the business. I'm curious if, and again, that's a six-hour conversation and that's a whole class I'm sure y'all could teach, but I'm curious if there are maybe a few things that you could direct us to for folks to be able to start thinking about what are some fundamental ways that I can start aligning policy or action or feedback to the overall business strategy so that I don't feel like just an order taker, but I feel like I'm part of the business conversation and strategy. 

Angela Cheng-Cimini: So the short answer at the expense of sounding flip is go ask the question about what is the business strategy? Start to understand it. So meet with your CFO, meet with your GMs, meet with your unit heads and say, what are the things that you're working on this year? And to what degree can people, how should the people strategy support that? And they may revert to things that you probably instinctively already know, help me hire really great people, help me set performance expectations. But also I think what we're also missing from those conversations is to give me the coaching and the feedback that I need so that I can lead the business better, right? So we do sometimes refer to the order taking, okay, I have an open rack, you go fill that for me. I need a better benefit, so go look at the benefits plan. I'm not sure that we're paying people competitively, right? But we do need to always go back to the first principle: why does the organization exist? Who are we here for? Who are we serving? And in what way can the people's strategy then support that? And you're right, I do think that sometimes it is the organization treating HR in that way. And you have to test the learning agility of the organization to be willing to see HR differently. But also sometimes it's just immovable. And I've talked to a lot of HR practitioners who find that they can't change the organization fast enough for their own good. And so they choose to leave those organizations and go someplace else that does think of HR more progressively. But fundamentally, it just starts with, okay, tell me about what you're trying to accomplish in the next year. And then let me work with you to identify the ways in which I can help you. It's no different than the chief marketing officer trying to understand what the product strategy is so that they can do the best marketing position. It's the CFO understanding what sort of investments to make. Chief people officers and all HR professionals should have those same conversations. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yeah. And I might even add, and I'd love to get your take on whether or not you think this is accurate, that there is also an element of okay, so ask the question about what are your goals? How can I be supportive? But then also drilling down on, are we defining that the same way? Let's be really clear about, okay, this is your goal. This is your objective. We really need great people. What does that look like? Yeah. So that you can, let's just like when, my partner says, hey, I need you to show up. What does that mean? Like, help me be specific about what that means. And I think there is that element of being able to do it well means I understand actually what you mean. Yes. And I'm willing to be a little bit vulnerable to come back and say, okay. I interpreted that this way. But it doesn't seem like we've nailed it. Yeah. So can we talk a little bit about it, right? Yeah. Okay. 

Angela Cheng-Cimini:  Yeah. Yeah. Seeking to understand. Yeah. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yes. Yes. And yeah, I think that's awesome. Okay, so in thinking about all these things, I just want to wrap up with a question for you that, you've been doing this for a long time. Is there anything that I have not asked you that as you are entering this new phase of your life and this new adventure that you're gonna take on, is there something we should have talked about today that we didn't? 

Angela Cheng-Cimini: Yeah, I've definitely been, pretty sentimental and melancholy, you this past year as I've been on the journey that got me here is, and it's not just for HR people, although I think might be particularly poignant, is do take time for self-care, right? Natasha, you and I were talking about that before we hit the record button. We are so busy taking care of other people that we forget to put our own mask on and make sure that we're okay. It can be a very lonely job, and so make sure that you're finding a community of other HR folks who understand what you're going through, but also make sure that you've got allies in your own organization, people who are there to serve as your confidants, or at the very least can just give you a space to just be, because that's important, and just really be intentional about how you spend time. And I think in the last year and a half, I found that I was just waking up Monday morning doing all the things, Friday afternoon being exhausted, maybe doing something I wanted to do, maybe not, and then Saturday and Sunday doing all the things that I neglected Monday through Friday, and then Sunday evening thinking about how to rinse and repeat. And then it was, and then a year has gone by, right? As we get older, time goes by faster, and I realized I needed to disrupt that. And so very similarly, I would encourage everybody to think about, are they living with intention, or are you just on autopilot? Because we're not getting any younger, and while I still have energy and joy and the luxury of making these kinds of choices, I'm going to seize them. And so that also means being really thoughtful about people you choose to spend time with both professionally and personally. 

Natasha Nuytten: Yes, I love that. Thank you for leaving us with that. You've been really generous with me and with us today during this conversation. Thank you. Is there a way that I or people listening can be supportive to you as you're making this next step in your journey? 

Angela Cheng-Cimini: You know what? I love hearing from other people. I love hearing about their journey. Natasha, if I ever do a podcast, which I likely won't, but I would love to hear more about what makes you tick and what are the things important to you. I think connection is important, and hearing about other people's experiences makes our own lives richer. So absolutely. I'm the only Angela Changsimony, and anybody who wants to connect with me, let me know that you heard me having this really great riff with Natasha. 

Natasha Nuytten: Thank you. Awesome. I've appreciated this. Super grateful for you. And I'm going to let you get to your travels. All right. Thanks, all. I told you. I told you it was going to be great. She's amazing. She's an incredible human being. Her values and what she is dedicated to is clear from start to finish, which is absolutely amazing. The authenticity with which she showed up in this conversation and clearly in the work that she's been doing is incredible and admirable. Anyway, enjoy. Please reach out to either us if you have questions or thoughts or to her. And happy leading.